Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Sam4 p97 welcome back.
[00:00:27] Speaker B: I again apologize for the raspy state of my voice. That's just the very rhythm we've got this semester. I've been shredding my voice, doing lectures, and I'm lucky I was able to get this interview done a couple weeks back. So you're gonna hear a pretty rapid change in my voice quality in about one second.
So today we are continuing our discussion regarding barriers to entry into the professional hockey industry and to hockey fandom in general. That's what we're gonna be hearing from with Tanisha. Tanisha is a PhD. She's a scholar, a consultant speaker, multimedia professional, and expertise in fan engagement, storytelling, digital transformation, and consumer behavior. She got her PhD in media psychology and provides creative strategy and cultural insight to businesses looking for looking to optimize audience engagement and produce memorable content to maximize community impact.
So Tanisha Singleton is one of the founding creators of the Black Girl Hockey Club and you'll hear her story and her journey through hockey today. She's from a non traditional hockey background, I would say, and her early part of her biography suggests that as well. Tanisha has a non traditional viewpoint on the way that hockey is consumed and the way that hockey can grow. It's important that you listen to what she's saying here. It's important that you acknowledge that her experiences are going to be likely different from yours. It's important that her viewpoint is going to be likely different than yours. That's a good thing.
Understanding the work that the Black Girl Hockey Club has done, whether it's with the LA Kings, the Seattle Kraken, the NHL in general, the Winnipeg jets, the Calgary Flames, the Edmonton Oilers. They've done work across the NHL and they're one of the most exciting organizations in terms of bringing new fans into the game through fan engagement activities as well as a scholarship fund as well. So I first of all would encourage you to check out the Black Girl Hockey Club website just to see again, what it looks like in practice and again, if you have an interest in these types of issues.
Looking at Tanisha's career and the way that she's forged a path for herself, I find her to be one of the best examples I've ever seen of someone who has forged a career in hockey based solely on her passion and her commitment to her ideals and her dreams for how hockey can be expanded. So again, Tanisha is someone that I would take very seriously about these issues. And if she says something that doesn't ring true to you in terms of your own experience that's important to remember that she's coming from a different place than you. And that's okay. That's good. We want those types of experiences, we want that type of expertise to inform the way that you understand the hockey industry as a whole. So let's listen to Tanisha again, just as a reminder, and this goes for both Tanisha and Jackie this week. If there's something that you find interesting, note it down, put it on your phone. If you're listening on your phone, just write it down somewhere so that when you're making your audio response and we will be doing that at the end of Tanisha's lecture that you'll be able to recall specifically what part of the guest lecture we're looking for. A few of you have been not doing that in your audio responses. I need to hear where it is that you're talking about when you reference it for your audio response. What I don't want to hear is so the guest speaker said that hockey is really important to them.
What I want is to say, you know, when guest speaker Jackie Beery noted the barriers to joining boys hockey in New Jersey at 3 minutes and 30 seconds, that allows me to say, okay, I know exactly what you're talking about here. I know I'm rephrasing myself from before, but just wanted to remind you about how that that process works. So listen to Tanisha, write down what you find interesting and I'll be back at the end to deliver your audio response question.
[00:03:59] Speaker C: Tanisha, thank you so much for joining us.
[00:04:01] Speaker A: Thank you for having me.
[00:04:03] Speaker C: Tanisha, if you could just super broadly to get things started, what was your earliest experiences with sport?
[00:04:11] Speaker A: Gosh, my family is a big, we're all big sports fans, big sports people.
Some of my earliest memories with sport in the late 80s, early 90s when Mike Tyson was can't miss television and events. My parents would always, we were the fight house. So my parents would get the pay per views and all their friends would come over and watch. And so I was about like 5, 6, 7 years old and my brother, we're 10 years apart. So he was like, you know, 15, 16. I remember like grabbing his tube socks and made him like boxing gloves and I would like beat up the pillow. And so my, my, my parents, my brother and all their friends were like, yeah, go tuning. I was like, yeah, because I just loved watching people watch sport. And I was like, what are they doing? Why is everybody so excited? So I just loved the experience that I was observing. And as a toddler, not Understanding, but just still watching them watch and all be glued on one screen at the time, right? Was just something that I absolutely was like, oh, I like this. I like this. People are into it, they're excited, they're jumping, they're screaming, they're eating a drink. Like, I like this.
And with my brother, you know, us being like 10 years apart again, when he was 15 year old in the 80s, watched pro wrestling and he was a big pro wrestling fan when he was a teenager. And so when he would have to babysit me, he just like sat me in front of, you know, the Ultimate Warrior and Dusty Rhodes and Jimmy Snuka and Macho Man Randy Savage. And I was like, yes.
So I was all in. And I'm still a wrestling fan today.
So those were really the earliest moments, earliest things that I can remember about sport and where I was automatically just very, very captivated. My parents were Lakers fans. I'm not, I'm a Clippers fan. But I mean, it was the Showtime Lakers at the time, you know, so the three peat in the 80s, I can't hate it. You have to respect that. But I remember sitting on my dad's lap eating popcorn, watching Magic Johnson. I remember just watching that stuff and just, it was, it was an anchor always in our house to this day, my mom texts me what time, what channel's the game on, what time? So like it's always been a part of our lifestyle and just, just how as we are as people, as a family. But those watching Mike Tyson fights, mimicking it and watching pro wrestling as a little kid and going to my first events live and being in a live event experience like that, I was like, oh my God. And cut to. You know, Now I'm almost 40 and I'm still watching and I'm. And I'm kind of trying to work in it.
[00:06:42] Speaker C: That's fantastic. And when did you start thinking to yourself, you know, I think I could study this at university. Were you in university when you first learned about that or was it before you went to school at all?
[00:06:51] Speaker A: You know, originally, because I just loved the. I loved video packages. I loved hype reels. I loved the way that they were cutting the stories that they told and how the stories in these reels and trailers, particularly in pro wrestling, that were some of my favorite parts and made me so excited to see the actual event. Right. And so I wanted to go to film and study film to learn how to put those packages together. I wanted to learn how to do stories. So I only applied to schools that had rft, like radio, television, film programs. So where I went with UC Santa Cruz, and I studied film and digital media there, and I had a radio show all four years on campus. Because I was like, no, I need to be. I need to. I want to learn how to be a storyteller. And I wanted it to be kind of.
Kind of like that Jacqueline of all trades, so to speak, where I know then I could use these skills and these tools and to be able to communicate sports storytelling in all forms of story. So I originally, yeah, that was always in my mind, like, I want to be able to put, like, sports packages together, tell stories.
So even as, yeah, when I was applying, so like, end of high school into undergrad and then to study it at a high, high level, at the doctorate level, that didn't happen until Twitter became a thing. And this was like 2013 or so. I'm in Los Angeles. I already had my master's in screenwriting from San Diego State.
And I was doing.
You do a lot of things in la. I remember I was bartending. I worked at a post production place. I did a bunch of stuff. And I was actually doing social media management for, like, the Viper and the Key Club on Sunset Boulevard were all these big, powerful music venues. So I ran the Facebook accounts and the Twitter accounts for fan giveaways, but I recognized in myself, I was like, hey, I can't watch a game now without this.
I was like, wow, why is. How is fandom changing? I was like, this is interesting. Like, I can't live without, like, NBA Twitter or MMA Twitter or wrestling Twitter. I was like, this stuff is starting to change how I'm a fan. Because I always never forgot we're fans first. We're consumers first, Were producers, researchers, anything else after.
Because we'll always still be in the people business, but we can't remove ourselves from this stuff. I would never make or submit something to a client that I wouldn't like myself or sell something. Right. That I wouldn't use.
So once I recognized, hey, how I'm a fan is changing, I want to know why. And so that's when I found this media psychology program and entered immediately that fall of 2013 to get my PhD in it to study solely fan identification and. And the intersection of social and digital technology and how the impact that has on all of sports. Touch points.
[00:09:36] Speaker C: Can we linger a bit on that topic there for a second about Twitter specifically and sort of as a companion. So you grew up, you said, with watching wrestling and sort of the performative elements of sport were certainly very important to you. You grew up watching Tyson, which is obviously such a. Boxing's got such a great spectacle to it, even to this day.
[00:09:52] Speaker B: Totally.
[00:09:54] Speaker C: Do you think that Twitter or the online sort of communities that have been created on sport have enhanced its sort of spectacle? Or has it made sports smaller in a way where they seem more relatable? Has it sort of enhanced or detracted from that spectacle?
[00:10:06] Speaker A: It's enhanced it to me, in my opinion, because there's certainly some elements where I feel like, oh, well, I've got the highlights right here, I don't need to watch or I know the highlights are coming eventually, so. But to me, there's so much more FOMO happening. That fear of missing out and that perceived cost of not being able to see something pivotal happen live.
And like, that's just such a huge thing to me. Excuse me. And I guess depending on the level of investment that you have as a fan, right, if you're like super highly invested, mega fan or just a casual passive fan, I think there's obviously going to be degrees to like, how digital and social technology can impact the experience for you.
I think for high level fans and even speaking for myself, I see it as such an enhancement because I'm adding to the game in real time.
Like, I feel like I'm adding to if I see, if I'm watching something live. And I was like three weeks ago, example, I'm watching Monday Night Football and I'm watching actually the Peyton and ELI simulcast on ESPN2 because I was like, I like Peyton. I was a Colts fan and I stopped when he left. And I know that they're both characters and they have a lot of personality. So I was like, let me see what this whole Peyton and Eli thing is all about. I watched it. It's freaking hilarious. It's the best thing ever. I'm mad it's still not on.
I guess it's coming back later, whatever. But I started tweeting about Eli and Peyton while still watching the game because of how great they integrated the simulcast. And then when I see likes, retweets, people commenting, I know I'm at. I feel like I'm adding to the experience.
So to me it's all augmented and I feel like I've been able to create my own, like a whole new group of friends, honestly, like, and the friends and the people that I've met on Twitter based on sports, because that's primarily like what my content is. It's kind of all over the place. But for the most part, you'll see me, like, live tweeting an event or something. But the friends that I've made from them. I've gotten more jobs because of Twitter. I've gotten more like close friends, especially because Covid and everything too. The Pandemic.
But I wouldn't put my friends that I've met on Twitter in a separate category than those that I've met, like, IRL in real life or something. Right. The value is there. I talk to these people probably more than I did the person I sat next to in the third grade. Like, I'm not going to rank that person greater just because they were. I met them online. We get jobs online, but we don't discredit them like that. These are real people and connections too. So to me, it's augmented the experience because of just how many other touch points I get to feel a part of in this web.
[00:12:45] Speaker C: That's fantastic. So you were talking there about certainly the evolution of fandom in that way as well. And I wanted to sort of ask you about the digital evolution that you've observed. So you said you started off running a Facebook page back in what seems like the halcyon days of Facebook in 2010-13. Yeah.
[00:13:01] Speaker A: Even before that, in high school, I was writing. It was a website called knowyournews.com and it was like a pro wrestling dirt sheet where they basically would give recaps of Raw and Smackdown. And I started writing and this is like dial up AOL Instant, like 99, 2000. I was a junior and senior in high school and I was writing recaps. I'm like Rey Mysterio, fought edge and death to death, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so. And I would give recaps of what happened in case you missed it live. And it's like, oh, and give predictions of what I think would happen next week.
That was like, honestly, like my first thing. But then obviously, yes, when social media and everything took off and we got WI fi and all these things.
Yeah. Starting to run Twitter and Facebook pages for big venues in and around sports, for sure.
[00:13:53] Speaker C: So you've been a digital citizen then for a very long time.
You know, there's. I'll steer the conversation towards, you know, something that is near and dear to a lot of our students here at Brockencing. And that's the hockey space in this way. So you've seen Twitter evolve and you've seen Facebook obviously evolve. You've seen many tools come low and disappear.
First of all, again, to sort of see that situation. We'll get back to Twitter in a second because it is relevant to this discussion of the NHL. But when was the first time you remember being introduced to hockey? What was your first experiences with hockey?
[00:14:26] Speaker A: Maybe it's not.
I'm sure a lot of people maybe share this that are in my age range, but the Mighty Ducks, because I grew up in Riverside, California, which is only about 30 minutes from Anaheim. So the Pond was this big, brand new thing. And I mean, it was called the Pond. This is a Mighty Duck. I mean, now it's like the Honda center or something, or Disney something, but I'll always call it the Pond.
And so when it was a whole brand new thing, it's like, I wanted to go. And I was like, what is this all about? Right? And so went with some friends. My parents didn't watch hockey. Still don't know why or what I do with black girl hockey club. Or they're like, y' all want hockey? Okay, But I get it. My mom was born in 1945 from Selma, Alabama. She remembers not being able to, like, drink out of certain water fountains, see certain movies because they weren't at the colored theater. She remembers this very, very palpable, ongoing existent form of discrimination and racism in this country. So black folks weren't playing hockey. That meant black folks weren't meant to watch hockey. And that's a real thing that they still think valid.
And so when I was like, oh, I'm going to go watch hockey, they're like, but why?
But they also. I was also very, very blessed and fortunate where they allowed me to be me and have my personality. And they just raised me with such confidence to be like. And if anybody says anything to you, you know what to do back. They're like, remember, you watched Tyson. Like, so they just let me have that level of confidence to be able to. So my friends, parents, like, they all got tickets. And so I was like, I wanted to go. And they're like, fine, you can go. And so I went with my friends because my parents were like, we're not going. We're not allowed. Like, that's not for us. We don't do that. If you want to, fine, I'll have questions. But I. So going with friends to the Pond was the first time as a kid, and then went a few times to the Sharks because I went to Santa Cruz for undergrad. So we'd go over to San Jose and see the Sharks a couple of times.
But those are, like, my early instances with it. But did feel awkward and especially that I couldn't talk about it or be with my family because they were very and still are like, that's not for us.
So it was something for the first time that was relatively sports related that I couldn't share with my parents, with my family.
So it was an odd early lesson or look inside like the real world, so to speak, when, when you're a kid.
[00:16:59] Speaker C: Awesome. Thanks for sharing that. About sharing, being able to share that with your parents. I can't imagine that feeling of. Because so much of us, our experience with sport is through family.
I can't really talk cricket with my dad. I've since got into cricket. But you know, I can't imagine how hard it would be as a kid, especially if you're trying to like, you know, develop a fandom, you know, to have to say like, well, you know, this is something that I'm going to strike out on my own. Did you, did you. When in digital spaces, were you able to find people that you could share your experiences with hockey or was it still very. An isolating experience growing up?
[00:17:30] Speaker A: It was still very isolated and there was such a like almost prioritizing and like rank in terms of like the sports that you watch and everything. Right. It takes a lot, especially when you're a kid. You got everything else going on too. So for me it was always like wrestling, basketball, football.
Like my parents were big track and field people. So whatever was on in the seasons and stuff like that was always primarily it hockey. I never considered myself a fan.
I always like, especially growing up, if it was the playoffs I'd watch because I just want to be able to see what's going on in like the games that matter. And it also hurt that it's the same as the NBA season.
And I played basketball growing up and I got scholarships to play in college and stuff. So basketball was always my priority. So I would never watch hockey over basketball.
To this day I'll watch hockey.
Now that you know, I'm growing, I have like much more space and all that stuff and it's like, cool, I can do that and I'll catch up playoffs all in. Because half the time it doesn't compete with NBA.
But that always was a big hindrance when I was a kid was that head to head. Like it's the same time, gotta pick and choose, I gotta go to bed by 10. You know, when you're a kid, like that always kind of hurt. But we.
It was certainly like now it's a thing that like when I'm home Visiting my parents. And I put on, like. I'm like, oh, look, Vegas Golden Knights. I live in Vegas now. They're like, oh, look, see, we have a team. And they're like, now what they doing? When do they fight? Because that's all they know is that they get to fight. So it's cute now that, you know, they're in their mid, late 70s and they know their kid kind of works and is affiliated with hockey in some way, that they're like, okay, so what are they doing now? So now it's kind of cute that they ask me to explain to them what's going on, but that would never have happened for the first 20 years of my life.
[00:19:21] Speaker C: So when you're explaining violence to them and that you're so well equipped to do this, you came out through a professional. Wrestling, boxing. How do you explain violence to your parents in the hockey space today, when they see it today.
[00:19:34] Speaker A: That'S what they look for. They're like, when do they fight?
When does it happen? What's going on? So the mechanics and stuff. And because of their. The generation and our community, our culture. So they're like, what teams have the black players? Like, which one has the most? Okay, that's what we're gonna root for. That's our favorite. Like, but they could never tell you, you know, anything about anything related to hockey. But they. That's the thing, though, that I recognized in, like, kind of researching fandom. And, like, for all sports, it's like, we have to have some touch point, and it's all going to be different for everyone. Right. Sometimes it's going to be a story of a player who's from your hometown. So then you're going to be fan of Team X just to support that person. You can be born and raised in a certain area. So you just inherit the jets, you inherit the Rangers, whatever, Right. The Blackhawks, or then once you get a little bit older, then you may, you know, you have the communities that you choose, and it could be from an experience, but we all have just such different touch points and entryways into anything that we're affiliated with as a community. Teams, fandom, Same thing.
Because, yeah, I think the first time I saw a hockey fight, I was like, okay, so I was like, we doing this, like, ant skating.
And so. And then you just go down the rabbit hole of fandom, and before you know it, yeah, you could have a whole wall, you know, draped with all this stuff. But there's got to be that first experience, that first touch point. It's like think of the first impressions that we have about everything, right? You go on a roller coaster one time, got sick, never been on one again, right? You first impressions are huge and sport moments are treated, I think, or need to be recognized as having that same level of significance in terms of like how to attract, maintain and sustain fandom.
[00:21:28] Speaker C: So that's a great point there. I mean the idea of first impressions. So generally speaking, and again, a lot of your work involves dealing with non traditional hockey fans. What do you think hockey's first impression is when people who've never seen a game, what's that first impression like right now?
[00:21:42] Speaker A: Ooh, unfortunately I think it's like it's a very white bro stigma, white bro barstool, toxic vibe.
I think that's the impression that people have.
I think if you get obviously when you meet other invested folks and long and long time fans and they have, they can recognize the history and the roots, the original six, they can get into those things and, and talk more skill. But I think in 2021, first impression hockey, if someone was that wasn't a fan, was like explain it to me or describe hockey to me. I think the words that they were used as white, toxic and bro, which is kind of like a dumb jock kind of, kind of stigma and narrative that I think partially is true.
And what I think is so neat sometimes is that we have the power, fans and communities have the power to be a part of something that wasn't really intended for them, but still make space for, in spite of so doing things, enjoying something in spite of a stereotype or stigma, in spite of its toxic history, to still be here. And like, no, I deserve joy, I warrant I want to be able to enjoy the game as well, despite all of these things. And it just creates such great opportunity and space for organizations and brands and scholars like us to be able to capitalize on that and start to make other experiences, make positive experiences that are based on things that are community centric, like positive, culture oriented. Because then just maybe we can start to be a little louder than the negative.
[00:23:50] Speaker C: That's such a great point about first impressions too, because you know, here at Brock, where most of us are Canadian, I think especially the last year or so with the various realities of the world, it's overwhelmingly Canadian right now because of the border restrictions.
And I don't know how many Canadians can recall their first impression of hockey because it's so indelibly linked with this society.
So being able to talk to someone who was able to meet hockey several Times throughout their lives or speaks to someone who meets hockey for the first time. Very few Canadians meet hockey for the first time as an adult.
Like, that says a very, very, very. You'd have to essentially be a new Canadian for that to be the case. And that happens frequently. And, you know, the impression you just gave here is something that is so important to understand about these sort of growth opportunities, as they're often referred to for the game. Because if you've not been, you know, if you just arrived in Canada or if you're from somewhere else, maybe you're from, you know, a city that you grew up in, you arrived to meet hockey. It fully formed those stereotypes. Don't feel like stereotypes. They sound like descriptions. Because, unfortunately, that's the way it looks. So for most Canadians, it's like, well, no, that's not the hockey. I was. I was introduced to. I was introduced to this pastoral rink game that, you know, out on the fields. Well, that's great.
Exactly. But there are no frozen ponds in Mumbai and there are no frozen bonds in, you know, in South Central. So there's gonna have to be a different way of understanding someone else's first impression. And the way you just described it, I think is a really important thing to remember. The Canadians really bristle at the notion that. Well, not the game that I know. Well, it doesn't matter. You know, that doesn't matter. How is the game projecting right now? Which brings me to the next. The question about the black girl hockey club.
Tell us about the black girl hockey. Tell us about how you got involved. Tell us everything.
[00:25:37] Speaker A: Yeah, you know, it was 2019 in the Fallish, I think it was around, like, October, this time of year. October, November. And scrolling on through Twitter as I do, and I ran. I don't know how it came up. Who in my. The algorithm, I don't know, or someone I followed retweeted something from black girl hockey club. And I just saw black girl hockey club that at. And I was like, what the is that? I was like, what? Who made that up? What? I just didn't understand. But I saw the avatar and I was like, oh, it's black girl with little afro puffs. And she's got the paint on and she's got a stick.
I was like, that's cool. And I was like, what? So I open it, and the tweet was an invitation for people to go to a meetup.
Vegas Golden Knights, oddly enough, were in Los Angeles gonna play the Kings, like, that weekend, and they were gonna do a meetup.
Where people tailgate and they were gonna have an event where, you know, we go backstage and meet, look Robitaille and go on the ice and kids pictures, whole thing. And I was like, you jive. And, like, I just didn't believe it. I was really so skeptical. I was like, lying. And so I went to the website. I was looking for ways to disbelieve that this was a real thing. I was like, you out of your mind? And I was like, wait, no, it's an official like.org website. It's like an organization. I was like, huh? And then I look and I'm like, well, no, it's registered as a nonprofit in California. Like, it's legit. And I was just like, no way. Like, I was just so. I was like, I'll play your reindeer games. Fine. So I buy a ticket because I expected to just show up and, like, everything be false, right? Because I just did not think that this was something I would ever see in my lifetime. So I was like, whatever.
Bought my ticket. I Show up, like 10am outside Staples center in LA, live downtown Los Angeles, and at 10am I already saw about 40, 50 people, all wearing black girl hockey club gear.
Black, white, Hispanic, Asian, handicapped, disabled, gay, straight, trans, babies, old children, everything. And I was like, I, like, all got goosebumps. I'm getting goosebumps thinking about it. Like, I had never seen that diverse collection of people at a park, let alone a hockey event.
Like, I was like, there's no damn way. I can't. I don't see that on. And fuck, I don't see that in Target, let alone at Staples Center. So I was like, my people. And then I was like, where's Renee? Because I knew she was the founder, so.
And she started this only about a year or so prior, 2018. She was visiting. She was in Dallas, I believe, and wanted to see a Stars game. And having experienced negative experiences and being harassed, you know, when we're trying to go to games and experience stuff. Before, she was like, went on Twitter and was just kind of did a poll. She was like, any black girls in Dallas want to see the game? Like, anybody? Anybody?
Excuse me. But what ended up happening was people in Philly was like, hey, I'm. Who wants to see the Flyers? People in Jersey, people in Florida, people in Chicago, people in Winnipeg. They're like, hey, I'm black. What about over here? What about over here?
And that, to me, was just so innovative, because to me, innovation is recognizing a need and fulfilling it. And what Renee did was she saw that she wasn't alone.
She saw that there was a lot of other black girls and women of color, period, that experienced not feeling safe, not feeling welcomed, not feeling like they were allowed.
Allowed were given permission to enjoy hockey.
And so that was all it took. She then started Black Girl Hockey Club in 2018.
So a year later, fast forward, when I'm at the Staples Center, I was like, where's Renee? Because I did that research. And I was like, where is she? So she was like, hi, Teresa. I saw like, you registered to come, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, I need to work with you. I love you. Oh my God.
Funny enough, she lives five miles from my parents in Riverside, California.
And so we went, we did that game. It was amazing. And then cut to 2020 Covid happened pandemic. But we had kept in touch online. And because she's in such close proximity to my parents, I said, I want to be all in. I want to work with you as much as possible. I just love what you were doing and I want to help expand this, especially given my background in media psychology and the school and all this stuff. And I was like, I think I could help. And so I've applied and I'm now the board. I'm the president on the board of directors for Black Girl Hockey Club and have been working with her and the other amazing board members and a whole international crew of volunteers who kind of helped make this happen. We've grown and accelerated so much in the last year, plus that I've been involved with them two years, that I've been involved with them now.
And it's just, it's just amazing. But that's the origin of how I found about it. I was on saw a tweet and I was like, no way and way, yes way.
[00:30:50] Speaker C: Well, that's just such a perfect marriage of your two interests. I mean, it's a digital space that you, you find this community in at first, and then it transitions into a wonderful sort of in person relationship as well. I mean, the, the, the Black Girl Hockey Club as a, as an entity is still relatively new, but has grown exponentially. I mean, it is staggering because of.
[00:31:12] Speaker A: That, because of that need and trying to, and answering this and recognizing that there's still so much that for some reason needs to be said, it needs to be repeated, right? That like, there is still racism, there is still social justice issues that we need to address on and off the ice. Like that is somehow news. But I think, you know, we're in such a back to basics Part of humanity. I think in this country. It's like, who knew we needed reminders to wash our hands, but we needed it for somehow. So it's like there's so much that we still have to do.
And as long as we're here for ourselves and making a community for us and our folks and our allies that love us and want to be able to have positive experiences, that's what we're just trying to do. In spite of, like I said earlier, like in all of those things that still like to be a bit traditional, even if it's toxic.
[00:32:04] Speaker C: Right. So the NHL as an entity, because again, I think sometimes we, too often, especially in Canada, we, we use hockey as shorthand for the NHL, which is not, you know, but the NHL is a culture setter in that way.
What is the NHL missing out on right now? If the NHL, for instance, was to say, you know what, Black Girl Hockey Club, we don't care. We don't. We're not, we're not interested. Which is not what they're doing, by the way. But I should say that. But if they were to have said that.
What types of things are being forgotten? Like to tell our students here about what community you think is being. Is being uncover by the Black Girl Hockey Club?
[00:32:37] Speaker A: Yeah, there's representation matters so much.
And it's very much like you said, like hockey and NHL just seem to get lumped together. Like it's all the same thing. Very much like UFC and mma. Like there's so much more outside of mixed martial arts that is good. And it's not just this Dana White, completely blah fireball of no.
Right. So the NHL unfortunately is still kind of lumped in that like, oh, that's hockey, right? Well, no, there is such, there's such more.
But I think like what's being missing out and what the community that is doing that type of lumping together. Hi, puppy. Hi, dog.
This is Cleophas. He's 10 months and he is like, where's my dinner? It's coming, I swear.
And he sits down.
[00:33:29] Speaker C: He's like, timing too.
[00:33:30] Speaker A: He's got like, where's my food?
What they're missing out on though, is just such a wealth of opportunity and story.
One of the things that we're doing at Black Girl Hockey Club is three times a year we give away scholarships from like one to five thousand dollars to black girls across the world that want to play hockey to help offset the cost. Because we know it's the most expensive sport to play, especially when you're A kid and you grow every hour, you gotta. You need new stuff.
And the parents, they don't have a support system. And when we give away these scholarships and this to help, we do these, you know, virtual zooms. And we do it and we talk to the families and we talk to the girls, and the parents end up sobbing because they're just saying, thank you for recognizing my daughter.
She wants to play, but I have to tell her, you know, I'm the only one telling her she can.
There's no one else telling her that she can. She's the only one of color on her team.
And sometimes in very rural areas and this all over the world, we've given away scholarships to young girls in Kenya and Ghana, Canada, Florida, everywhere in between.
South America.
So when we see stories of, like, Puerto Rico about to have, you know, women's hockey team in league, and we're seeing Blake Bolden work with, you know, as a pro scout for the LA Kings, we're having Saroya Tinker, who is amazing and been working with us and volunteering and offering her own mentorship programs because the. In what the NHL and other hockey organizations are not doing is they're not talking to other people who don't have other touch points. And that first impression to hockey that say, like this, you could do this too.
I didn't watch tennis before Venus and Serena.
I didn't watch golf before Tiger. I had no idea what a birdie was. I was like, what?
I didn't know.
So. And that's not to say, well, every sport just has to now start to just include a bunch of people of color just to check boxes.
But you can tell stories. It doesn't have to just be on the ice. It's in branding. I'm seeing this Hockey is for everyone, hashtag all over the place.
But I'm still not seeing a lot of people who look like me saying it and being hugged by the NHL.
I'm not seeing that. And one thing that this whole kind of resurgence of social uprisings and civic engagement.
Breonna Taylor, George Floyd, Ahmaud Arbery, go on and go on. And I could go on.
One thing I recognized that's kind of related to why I even studied sport again at this level was I realized last year when everything was shut down, I was like, wow. I think the reason I love sports and entertainment so much is because this is the only space I can go to see someone look like me succeed and praised regularly, consistently see someone that looks like me celebrated. Couldn't say that about government Doctors.
At my PhD, that took me like, so it's 23 years, right? K through 12 undergrad, grad school, PhD.
I've had three black teachers my entire life.
Four of you include my kindergarten teacher, Ms. Mitchell. Shout out Ms. Mitchell. So I've had four. I had Ms. Mitchell. I had Ms. Hill, who was my college prep teacher in high school. Then I had Dr. Tricia Rose, who was amazing teaching a hip hop history class, which is basically critical race theory, and the iconic Dr. Angela Davis. I had those four.
That was it. Nothing in grad school, San Diego State. Nothing at Fielding when getting my PhD. But I always loved sports.
And subconsciously I think now it was because I could go here and see someone who looks like me praised and celebrated routinely acting athletes, entertainers, musicians. That was always somewhere I could go. And so when I say representation matters, I'm saying, yeah, that's because there are communities who still don't feel like they are welcome if you are not trying to talk to them.
And that's what I think is missing in the NHL and any other organization that's a stakeholder and affiliated with the game.
Start to tell stories about the experience.
Start to talk in an inviting tone.
That's what branding is. It's like branding isn't what you say about yourself, it's what people say about you.
That's why we have reviews on everything.
Because people's reviews are always going to be read more than what your own about page says. It's how do you. How do people feel about you? That is your brand identity and your experience.
People say hockey is funky. That's how it feels because they're not being talking to or spoken to or invited. And campaigns show somebody, you know in a headdress. Show someone, show people of color and it's and. And not in that McDonald's jazzy remix kind of way where it feels so forced, you know, Remember what I'm talking about? Where they like made a jazzy but up.
And I was like, oh, God, like, that's just not authentic. I was like, swing and miss. McDonald's can't. Like, don't. We're not a commodity over here. We're people. And we want to be able to enjoy the game because it's a beautiful game.
Want to be able to enjoy it for its skill and entertainment value and the occasional fight.
But it's if we're not comfortable coming through the door or when I'm bartending and turning it on and someone was like, why are you watching hockey? You're not supposed to watch that.
If I didn't, if I had any other set of parents, I probably wouldn't watch hockey because I would feel like I wasn't allowed to. But my parents were like, you can do whatever you want.
[00:39:34] Speaker C: I mean, that is so valuable. I mean again, it's important to again convey your, the audience because you can't see them right now, which sucks. But you know, I can't imagine a more captive audience when it comes to the future of sort of hockey leadership and you know, sport leadership in Canada, which is working, or claims to be working to address a lot of the issues that you brought up here. And that notion of just certainly sincerity is a problem. Like that's an issue that sincerity is hard to earn and easy to lose. Right? I mean it's easy to. And so is credibility in these issues. And you know, it must be something that is difficult for the, for the Black Girl Hockey Club to not want to be used as a prop by certain leagues. You know, I'm sure it must be a constant. And is there, can you, can you speak to that sort of from a non profit standpoint where you're like, I don't want to be the tool of, you know, Gary Bettman or you know, this, this particular team.
Is it tricky sometimes to walk that line?
[00:40:29] Speaker A: That's a great question. And it is because it's very true. You have to be very cognizant of like the relationships that you do get in as a nonprofit. And I can speak to that like as my own, as a professional and in working with Black Girl Hockey Club because it is very important to me for people, organizations, any entity, to match your values with action.
It's like if you say you represent inclusion, diversity, blm, anything like that, show me what you have done to illustrate that. Don't just say it.
It's like those that talk about black lives or I mean Black History month, but then March 1st, that shit's gone and you never hear about it anymore because we see that all the time.
And nowadays maybe it's just because I'm getting older and so time is much more valuable to me.
And especially the time that you know, we put into Black Girl Hockey Club that if we keep receipts.
So if we see somebody that has been like yay, Black History Month, woo hoo. But then like support someone who supported, you know, like anti women or like pro life legislation or that you know, supported racist policymakers in law and it's like, oh, that's not the same.
Remember how you said this, like, that's a disconnect between what you're valuing and what you're actually doing.
So there's a lot of.
And I do this even myself. And so. And I. And I bring this into Black O Hockey Club, and I make sure our leadership understands. It's like we interview them more than people interview us.
Because we'll ask these questions. I will ask these types of questions. It's like, what do you value?
How are you match? How are you demonstrating that? And I think that's very important. And something that organizations and nonprofits have to start to lay out for themselves. First, do that self work. It's hard. It's not easy doing that self audit. And once you understand that that's the skeleton of your culture.
And then you can start to branch out, create the limbs, put the vibe, the culture and the muscle on it, on that skeleton that you've created because it's founded in something that's your spine.
[00:42:43] Speaker C: You mentioned that hardness, that part that's difficult.
Is that something. That's the slogan, get uncomfortable.
[00:42:51] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:42:51] Speaker C: And can you speak to that slogan and sort of what that means to maybe a group of people who've never heard that slogan or were unfamiliar with that?
[00:42:58] Speaker A: Yeah. So after, like I said, like the.
The horrible events that happened last year with Ahmaud Arbery, just after another after another after another, it was very, very hard. It still is. And it was just such an exhaustive process.
Speaking for myself, you know, like, as a black woman in this country, and I had just moved to Las Vegas by myself, you know, traditionally a state that leans in a certain way.
And, yeah, for a while.
I remember my brother was like, oh, make sure, you know, you lock your doors and you get the ring, camera and all that stuff. And I was like, what does it matter? Cops could come in here and kill me and it wouldn't matter, because we've seen it. Right. So there was just such a demoralizing place that I went.
And I know a lot of my sisters go through. Right. Family like that goes through that. Right.
And so we wanted to do something and say something, because our whole motto and mission was to be able to create a community in a safe space for black women. Our family and the folks that love us and our allies.
And we're like, we have to. We didn't see.
We saw the NBA start to do things. The WNBA is always the leader in these things. They always, like, ran with it. We see the NBA, try NFL working on it. They snitch on themselves regularly. I Was like, you have the nerve to have end racism in your inline and like your end zone. But Colin K.
Gruden, don't get me started.
So we knew we had to do something because we didn't hear anything from the NHL. We didn't see anything done. Not like they need to call us, but just in general didn't see anything done. So we're like, we. Fine. We're. We've been in the business of not waiting for others to serve us. We're gonna serve ourselves first and not gonna wait for other people. So we created the Get Uncomfortable campaign which was to bring awareness and disrupt racism on and off the ice. Because we saw a lot of players with toxic, horrible racist history and practices, like getting resigned and these things and just being promoted and showcased, like, look how wonderful, look how fast. And oh my God, it's like. Or like we can't ignore the other stuff. I wish it's like we were saying before where it's like, yeah, I wish we could just talk about hockey.
Unfortunately, we can't right now. And it's not fair because the black players, the players of color and those that are conscious and progressive and are with it, it's not comfortable for them either. And so we can't be. So shut up and skate about it. We have to recognize that this is hard for them too, because they're people just like us and they have to go home and deal with these things just like I have to deal with these things. So we created the Get Uncomfortable campaign to challenge everyone and take the pledge that they would get uncomfortable.
And it's just past its year birthday, so the theme for Get Uncomfortable Year two is Get Uncomfortable in the workplace. Because there's three pillars behind Get Uncomfortable. We want people to be cognizant about how to employ best practices and people of color within their business, how to educate themselves on anti racist practices. Which is weird, right? We have to talk about how to be anti racist. Like, who knew? But these are honest conversations. People don't know certain things are racist.
And yeah, educate, employ and encourage and encourage is that whole representation matters thing that I mentioned earlier. It's encouraging others to do more, to be conscious and as people consider ourselves as our own brand. Right? What we stand for and things, it's like, what do you value as a person now? What are you doing to help?
It goes beyond just donating, but we have to look internally too, because what needs to happen in Vegas is different in Winnipeg. It's going to be different than Toronto. It's Going to be different than Chicago. It's going to be different in Jacksonville.
It's not a copy and paste solution.
And so the look, getting comfortable is looking internally within your own resources. What do you have? How could you help?
Is it sharing resources? Is it having difficult conversations? Sometimes it can be just as simple as that. Sometimes it's reading, sometimes it's going out of your comfort zone because change is literally uncomfortable. So we named it get uncomfortable because we know we have been for so long. And in order to correct the things that need to happen on a national issue, Dan. Or worldwide, actually, it's going to take a lot of work.
And we've been getting, you know, black folks, we've been uncomfortable in these instances in so long, but it looked like so many people were looking to black people and black Girl Hockey Club to be, oh, okay, well, here's this problem we created. You fix it now. So we have to be suffering from. And the problem solvers, you're gonna put all of that pressure on us.
G, F, Y.
Like, you know what that stands for? It's like, you can't. We can't, like, suffer from the problem and then be the ones to fix it.
So getting uncomfortable, it's. It's recognizing that. It's calling that out and having our allies and our friends and people who never thought that they could be a contributor and Val. And add something to this.
Yes, you can take this pledge, work with us because we have a series of digital events and resources and guides that I help put together where we talk about actionable items that can be done to help just in your own community, just in your own home. Because it's like I said about building experiences. Maybe one day, if enough of us start to make a little positive noise, we can be louder and louder than the bad because we don't have to all believe the same thing. Right? That's fine. Tribalism, us versus them. I get it.
But maybe we can just have enough of the positive experiences where people won't be harmed and we'll feel included and we could all have a shared positive experience that it may be just a little bit louder than the things that are trying to prevent it.
[00:49:19] Speaker C: What an important message. And, you know, comfortability.
Is there anything more comfortable than a Canadian hockey fan's relationship to hockey again? And you speak to Canadians frequently. I know you do. I know you deal with Canadian hockey fans frequently, but it is not enough. I couldn't. I could scream and yell, I'm blue. In the face of trying to get students and Everyone who's watching this right now, I mean, yeah, Canadians are very comfortable with their relationship to hockey, generally speaking, you know, and that's something that. That's not a good place for the NHL to be in. That's not a good place maybe because.
[00:49:56] Speaker A: It'S showing that, okay, if this is it, are you good with that?
You don't think it could be better?
Like, are you comfortable here? Are you all in? You just. You pulling out, you settling? Like, it. You don't think the game could be better?
It couldn't grow.
It couldn't be more. So it's. It's thinking. Yeah, it's like, we don't want to like those that are comfortable. It's like, no, it's perfect. It's fine in the way it is. It's like, is it.
That's very, very dismissive of a lot of other people. And for what?
Because you just happen to be born in a place where you could skate on a pond outside.
What about.
What about me?
I'm not worthy. So there's a lot of permission and privilege that's attached to hockey and a lot of other, you know, cultures and stuff. Right. Technology, art, media. But hockey specifically, there's a lot of privilege and permission that's kind of around that. And so those in hockey leadership need to be educated on that. And sometimes that needs. Means. Yeah, you need to have somebody sitting at the table who looks like me that would be able to at least add. Because diversity is also diversity of thought and perspective. You want to hire an echo chamber, or do you want to. And not be left behind? Or do you want to actually be sustainable?
Yeah.
[00:51:18] Speaker C: I mean, the answer to your question from the NHL's point of view for 50 years or so has been, yes, we. We love our echo chamber.
[00:51:24] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:51:24] Speaker C: And the things that you've shared today are so important for so many reasons. Because you mentioned something there. There's a couple things I want to pull back on, and that's. You said, look, I didn't watch hockey because it was. It was right up against basketball. And you want to have a look at a sport that has grown in Canada, look to basketball. And it's not like many Canadians can see themselves in most of the NBA. Right.
And that's because the NBA has directly spoken to Canadians of all race, color and creed, said, come support our product.
[00:51:56] Speaker A: Right.
[00:51:56] Speaker C: And you said, the representation matters. No Canadian can dispute that. Because, look, none of us know tennis outside of the. Generally speaking, whatever tennis players, Canadian or, you know, they come the Olympics, none of Us Know, diving. Until there's a Canadian involved in the Canadian sort of parochial sport atmosphere.
[00:52:10] Speaker A: What was her name, that teenager that would just lost to the finals?
[00:52:13] Speaker C: That Layla Fernandez.
[00:52:15] Speaker A: Yes.
Cheering my ass off for her. I was like, you were amazing. I was so sad when she lost in the finals. But per your point. Yeah, I was like, canadians have tennis players. I was shocked. Like, and Tina, she turned 19 or something in the middle of the Open. I was like, oh, my God.
[00:52:28] Speaker C: So, yeah, how could Canadians not conceive of that mattering? Now imagine that for someone who looks like this color of your skin. I mean, of course it matters. Of course it matters.
[00:52:38] Speaker A: So the growth, consider it before. It's shocking. And a lot of people have never had to think about that. People. When I said, I have like four black teachers, and if you ask anyone, any white, there were a couple. The first time I said that on a virtual event or a conference or something, someone in the chat I saw was like, I. Every single one of my teachers has been white. Right. It was like, I can't fathom that. And then someone was like, yeah, I think I only had one, actually. No, it was just the lunch lady. And so I'm just seeing people comment as I was talking in this panel, like, about that. So, yeah, it's. It's only when people are forced to consider an alternative that that's uncomfortable, hence, get uncomfortable. And so it's that because people don't want to feel. But here's the thing. It's like, which pisses me off sometimes. It's like when we're talking about considering racism and these types of social justice issues. It's not an attack.
People take it personal. They're like, I haven't done it. I'm just like, I didn't say you did. Right. I'm just saying consider your experience.
It's very different than mine.
And so. But people get so defensive immediately and just throw up the Heisman. Like, I don't even want to hear the rest of what you're going to say because they think it's an attack on them personally. It's like, no, no, no, no, no. This ain't about you. Get over yourself. It's not.
It's not just you think about just all we're saying, your experience is going to be a hell of a lot different than somebody else. Just like you said, there's no Frozen Ponic South Central.
Does that mean that no black kid should learn how to skate or should be able to watch hockey or play or go to Pigwig and Burbank, where there is an ice rink inside where it's like, so that they could learn and play and skate.
It's like, should they not have access to those types of things? But it's that, it's that permission and privilege and people don't want to give that up because they feel like, yeah, if we let them in, then we're losing something. That's like why it's not what. Oh, so you're acknowledging that it's yours Point take like done. Yeah.
[00:54:54] Speaker C: The basketball point in Canada is an easy one to make because again, like white people in Canada, generally speaking, don't have to feel like they have to aspiration to watch the NBA.
Fact. And despite the fact that, you know, DeMar DeRozan for so many years in Toronto was. He's from South Central. I mean, he is not from, he's not from the circumstance of Toronto. But just knowing that no one ever made you feel like you're not allowed to watch the Raptors. Imagine if that felt like that. I mean, it would be really, really, really devastating.
[00:55:21] Speaker A: Yeah. Kawhi Leonard is from Riverside, California, just like me. He was up there and went to San Diego State like me. I'm like 10 years older than him. But he. Yeah, that's, that's very, very real. And a great point because yeah, that's not the same when it comes to, you know, the permission and privilege for hockey.
Like, we don't fathom that with basketball.
[00:55:42] Speaker C: Last question here. Just so. And again, because you've given us so much to. Oh, fantastic.
You've given us so much to chew on, especially with regard to my house. Oh, this is awesome. It looks we're firmly in fall here in Ontario, so this is nice to see you.
[00:55:58] Speaker A: Yeah, I still got the sun out.
[00:55:59] Speaker C: Here, but you've given us a lot to sort of chew on, especially with this notion of getting uncomfortable. And I'm going to encourage any of my students to think deeply about that pledge if that's something that they feel like they can commit to sincerely. And the question I have for you, as you sort of summarize what we've gone over today, is what advice could you give a room filled with people who want to work in sport, people who want to work in hockey, people who want to work as decision makers. A lot of the students in this class want to be people who have the ability to hire and fire and make trades, or if they just want to work in a non profit, like the way your industry right here. What advice would you give People that are just starting off their careers in sport in that way.
[00:56:45] Speaker A: Oh, that's a good question and a hard one.
Advice, I think.
Have a thick skin.
You have to have a thick skin because you'll hear no a lot. You'll hear why a lot. You'll have to defend yourself a lot on the decisions that you make. And of course they should be, you know, founded and informed in some type of reason and strategy, but don't have that echo chamber, right, where you're only hiring in the same voice. Those that have the same opinions as you, you'll get left behind real quick.
And I think, and even if you're just starting out, if you recognize that the room that you're in, where decision makers are, they're all saying, looking, thinking the same, executing the same initiatives and stuff, that might be a red flag.
That's not to say every decision should have a disagreement, but it should be one that at least feels like it's forward thinking.
Because management is two things. Management is managing the short term while still developing plans for the long term.
So while you've got short term things that you need to solve, fix, produce, what is being done on a parallel path for the long term to make sure that these short term things are sustainable.
So they're two separate things, but are still on the same.
They're on the tracks, are parallel with themselves and eventually though they should intersect, that these short term plans are seeds for the long term.
And so I always, when looking at creative strategy and these types of things, like, think about what is it informed in some type? Or is the design of things even if it's content?
Or an organizational psychology, like, and in business development and thinking about partnerships, it's like, what's the purpose?
So I think being intentional is very important and there should be discussions of that at kind of every level.
Certain things, sometimes, yes. Twitter, when there's just conversation, short term, fun, absolutely. It's like, have your tone of voice, have your brand. And it's just like, yeah, be a people. We're in the people business. Right? It's like, make sure that your brand, your business has a very humanized, personal element to it. That it's not just so transactional, that it's like, okay, you give me this and I'll give you. You pay me and I'll give you this.
What's the experience?
Because to me, and what I, you know, I hate titles and I know we all have so many different ones and it's like depending on who I'm talking to, I'll make up a different title. I don't know. But I think at the end of the day, it's like I'm in the business of building experiences. Like, I just want to build dope experiences and that being in communications, in media, writing, technology, I want to make a dope experience for fans and for everyone, all the stakeholders. And I think it's important to recognize, especially in hockey and in sports, the experience is greater than the game.
It's not a box score, it's not a stat line, it's not a tale of the tape. Like, the experience of the game is so much Greater. That's why ESPN and Fox Sports are 24 7. A game is three hours, but we're talking about it 24 7. Because there is just a whole level of different touch points, different first impressions, different ways that people in prompts for people to be engaged with that happen at any moment.
So being interdisciplinary is very important.
So understanding the experience dynamics, understanding how media technology is a tool to augment the experience. Like your first question that we opened up with how it's augmenting, not replacing.
These are tools to enhance human connection and enhance the experience of the game, not dilute it.
So be complementary with it in terms of the design that you're making for any type of creative strategy work, I think that's key. So long winded answer, but I'm thinking definitely being intentional, making sure that there's not an echo chamber in the room and that if something doesn't feel right or just want to know the why behind it, I think that's a part of being intentional and having that thick skin and being able to know that there's.
It's hard work. Because hockey specifically is a very tried and true. We talked about a traditional, rooted kind of place. It has a longer history of being undiverse than it has being diverse.
So it's okay if we're in the minority because again, I think if we just end up creating enough of these positive experiences, then maybe once they all assemble, it can be like an Avengers thing where the good is out screaming the bad a little bit.
[01:02:17] Speaker C: Thank you so much. And again, on behalf of all the students, thank you so much. Dr. Tanisha Singleton, thank you so much for joining us.
[01:02:23] Speaker A: Thank you.
[01:02:30] Speaker B: Okay, you've heard from Jackie, you've heard from Tanisha. Now I'm looking for something from you in your audio responses this week.
So we have discussed at a fairly long length now, barriers to entry for now. Today was about fans, a little bit about players as well, from Tanisha and again, I really appreciate her, her perspective on these issues. Certainly we'd learned about being a player from Jackie as well, and that was more to do with the professional women's game.
[01:02:55] Speaker C: Our discussion of barriers, hopefully it's a.
[01:02:57] Speaker B: Bit of a non traditional look at the way we talk about barriers because one of the things that I think is one of the more tiresome topics is that of cost mostly because again, that is a very difficult thing to overcome just by sitting in a room and thinking about it. Of course, we are familiar with cost. So I want in your audio response here directly addressing things that you heard from both Tanisha and Jackie. What do you believe is the largest barrier to entry in the hockey industry? Be that as a fan, be that as a consumer, what is the largest barrier to entry?
But I'm going to add as a stipulation that you can't use cost in your answer. Not because it is not important. We know this. It's. It's something that's an extremely well established fact when talking about hockey. And I find it to be a rather circular discussion. What is the largest barrier to entry when trying to get someone into hockey as an industry, hockey as a sport in general, in order to think so much about the sort of professional side of things, just trying to grow the game in general. Think of the things that Tanisha was telling us today about following the game. Think about the things that seemed to intrigued her about the game itself and think about her background mentioned, her family's involvement in the game, all that good stuff. So again, please reference specifically, if you're gonna reference something, and I want you to, for both Jackie and Tanisha, reference specifically where in the discussion, what time it took place, and that way I know specifically where to look. So that's your audio response question for this week and I look forward to listening to them and I hope you.
[01:04:21] Speaker A: Have a great week.
I don't wanna.
