Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:14] Speaker B: Welcome back to a jam packed week. We have a pair of guest lecturers visiting us this week and some more exciting guest lecturers to come. Today we're going to be visited by Michelle Eastman. As I mentioned last week, she was in your shoes very recently. She's a recent Brock SPIMA grad. She now works with the Ice Dogs and she has actually just started a full time position there. She's going to be giving us a bit about her journey through Spima and also some information about how the Ice Dogs run and what she does on a day to day and week to week basis. After that you're going to hear from Sunny Sashdeva who is a staff writer for sportsnet. Sunny is also what we call a features writer. He's going to explain a little bit about what feature writing is during his guest lecture. So today's week is going to kick off a discussion of hockey media. That's going to mean that coming on the heels of your media analysis, Simon, we're going to be discussing the way that hockey media is created, the various parts in which go into the creation of hockey media. What to be analyzing when you look at hockey media and some of the people that actually create the media itself. Our second guest lecturer this week is going to be Torrey Peterson, who runs all the digital content and the social media for the Calgary Flame. So she'll be our second guest this week. So first up you're going to hear from Michelle. She's going to be giving you her journey through Brock and a little bit about her job with the Ice Dogs. After that, you're going to be hearing from Sonny. If you have any questions for Sonny about any of the pieces that I posted this week on BrightSpace, if you ever want to ask him a question about joining the hockey media industry or writing in features or any of the sort of things that Sonny does, let me know, send me an email and I can pass you along to Sonny. He noted that he'd be willing to answer questions over email. So enjoy Michelle and enjoy Sonny.
We're so fortunate to have the manage and community events for the Niagara Ice Dogs. Michelle Eastman here to join us today. Welcome, Michelle.
[00:02:04] Speaker C: Yeah, thank you for having me.
[00:02:06] Speaker B: Michelle. You know the situation that many of my students are in right now. You yourself were a Brock SPIMA student yourself not too long ago. You're also a recent graduate. Take us through your journey through Brock. What was it like?
[00:02:18] Speaker C: Well, when I first started, I remember being in grade 12 thinking I love sports, I want to work in sports.
I Did end up taking a gap year because I was going to go play NCAA hockey.
Didn't quite work out. So I thought, might as well start applying. And I came across Brock's sport management program, thought, that's perfect.
I got the acceptance letter and I was super happy.
And I remember being in my first year thinking, wow, there are a lot of males in here. And I had seminars where I was the only girl. And I thought, okay, I can work with this.
It was a little tough because I found a lot of them were talking about stats and all this. And I thought I just like the conceptual side of sport. I like the game of sport.
Not too focused on the stats. And I remember in first year, I can't remember the Prof. But he had said, stats aren't going to get you as far as you think in this program.
And I'm gonna be honest, I was relieved because some players, I can't name every player on the team can't name how many goals they scored like the night before. So it was, it was nice. And as I got into upper years, I found that the creative side was what I really liked.
And I liked community events, I liked fan fan experience. All that I found was very interesting for me.
[00:03:45] Speaker A: Perfect.
[00:03:45] Speaker B: And how did you first get involved with the Niagara Ice Sox?
[00:03:49] Speaker C: So in fourth year there's an internship program.
And I remember I found out about it, I applied for it and got accepted into the course.
And I knew I wanted to work with hockey. I've known that since grade 12.
And I saw a job posting for the Niagara Ice Dogs for an internship position.
I applied, I interviewed and I, I got the position, did that from September to December and then stayed on as a game day volunteer.
And I guess I did something right because now I am working here.
[00:04:23] Speaker B: That's fantastic. And congratulations on that posting. That's, that's, that's fantastic work. How would you describe your day to day? Even though it's only been a few, few months here that you've been working in this position? What's your day to day? Like? What, what is your role with the Ice Dogs?
[00:04:37] Speaker C: So my day to day, I start at 9am Come in, turn on my computer and I check my emails. Typically it's people who placed orders overnight or community event requests or mascot requests. So I'll go through those, I'll reply, I'll forward them to our mascots, they'll reply, yes, no, contact them. And then in the off season, golf tournaments are huge.
So I'll get requests. Hey, can you donate to our Golf tournament where I'll reply and say we would love to attend.
We usually at golf tournaments will run contests that we donate two prizes, two frame photos, and we raffle off season tickets with all proceeds being donated back to the tournament. So that I've been setting up a lot of those, which is awesome.
And yeah, it's a great way for us to get out into the community as well.
[00:05:28] Speaker B: How would you describe the sort of culture of working with the Ice Dogs and working in the chl? There are any unique challenges because you've been working in the retail space for a lot longer than you've worked in here with the Ice Docs. What are some differences in working for a CHL team that you've noticed from working in other places?
[00:05:43] Speaker C: Well, definitely working my part time job at Cineplex is much different here.
I feel like it's so important to get a relationship and build a relationship with fans.
Other jobs, like part time jobs, you work in high school through school, it's more of a monetary based transaction. So, okay, here's your 2, $2 and 10 cents for your extra large double, double. Have a nice day.
Here it's. Hey, John, I haven't seen you in a while. How are you going? How are the kids? And you really build friendships with these, these fans and it's, it's awesome. But as for challenges, I think, I think honestly it's just switching from graduating university into a 9 to 5 so quickly. It was kind of like, whoa, whoa, what's going on here? And it just, it all happened so quick, but I was quick to get used to it.
[00:06:41] Speaker B: And if someone's unfamiliar with the CHL sort of atmosphere or the OHL in general, how would you describe the Ice Docs? As someone who's never been to a game or never seen a CHL game, what are the differences between that and perhaps the NHL or even youth hockey?
[00:06:55] Speaker C: So I think what makes CHL unique is the kind of the amateur aspect combined with a professional touch.
So these guys, they're coming out, they're playing, and they're essentially showcasing themselves to higher leagues to get drafted.
So I think the games, they're awesome. They're perfect for families, for any demographic really. And just working here, I honestly, I have so much fun here every day, Love coming in. I love seeing my coworkers.
So, yeah, I think it's just a very fun and caring atmosphere, I guess I would say perfect.
[00:07:33] Speaker B: And you mentioned sort of like the relationship with fans. That's certainly an important part of the way that we've discussed. We had the commissioner of the East Coast Hockey League in previously and he's mentioned something similar that these are long lasting relationships you have to form with these fans. And they're not fans for a couple games. They're fans for, in some cases, decades. And their children become fans. And that sort of intergenerational aspect. Is there a family culture with the Ice Dogs? Is that something you've noticed when you started working there?
[00:08:00] Speaker C: Yes, actually. So before I started, I went on a couple elementary school visits just to kind of get. Get into it, get used to it. And the kids love the Ice Dogs.
I have never seen kids be so happy when players walk in. They were, they were ecstatic. So I find with kids, especially Bones, Top Dog, they love him. So it's really nice to see it. And I'm thinking these school visits, those kids will remember it for their whole lives and that will really influence them when they get, when they get older, get their own money and they can come to games.
[00:08:38] Speaker B: Absolutely. I mean, and first of all, they love Bones because Bones is awesome. If you don't know who Bones is, mascot of the Ice Dogs and he comes to every game, he's great. And you mentioned sort of the fan relationship and I'm curious as it relates to the events. This is part of their assignment. They're going to be pitching an event to you, ostensibly. What do you think are the hallmarks of a successful event and when do you know an event really is working?
[00:09:02] Speaker C: Fan engagement. That is my one answer, and I am strict with that answer. Going out and actually speaking with fans one on one. When I was interning, that was my favorite part. I loved meeting them. I love seeing how they reacted to us.
And go out. You try something, if it works, you keep doing it. If it doesn't, you think, okay, how can I make it better?
So, for example, we have fan engagement activities. I'm currently building a prize wheel right now that people can spin and win some little things.
So it's, it's nice just to play around with it and see what really gets people going.
[00:09:38] Speaker B: Do you have a favorite event that you've seen so far that the Ice Dogs have done, or do you have an event from the last season that you thought, well, this really worked well.
[00:09:46] Speaker C: Honestly, the golf tournaments, I can't pick a specific one, but I've had people call my phone and say, hey, Michelle, I remember you from a golf tournament in October last year.
So those are huge, especially with the season ticket raffle and donating that money back into A charity. I think it's perfect for not only the charity, but for us because we're getting fans into the building and they're seeing and they go, okay, I had great time this season. And gives them a chance to upgrade their tickets.
[00:10:17] Speaker A: Perfect.
[00:10:18] Speaker B: Last question. What advice would you give to those of you who are sitting in the this or wherever you are listening to this right now and thinking to themselves, I'd like to work in hockey, especially at the community planning, at the event planning and the operation side. What advice would you give them sitting in the seat that you were sitting in not that long ago?
[00:10:35] Speaker C: Oh, man, this is going to sound entirely cliche, but believe in yourself.
I had times in school where I thought, am I in the right industry? And back to the stats thing I was talking about things like that made me think, do I belong?
And I said yes. I picked this for a reason. My love for sport doesn't change because of these thoughts.
And I just believe in myself and just went for it. It's another thing too, is if you're unsure of something, go for it anyways. Worst that's gonna happen is it doesn't work out for you.
[00:11:08] Speaker B: That was the manager of GameDay and Community Events for the Niagara Ice Dogs, Michelle Eastman, a Bright Rocks female alum. I'd be happy to pass along any questions you have to Michelle, so send me an email if you'd like me to do that. And up next is Sunny Sashdeva of sportsnet.
So we are joined by Sunny Sashdeva of Sportsnet. Sonny, thank you so much for joining. Brock4p97 thanks for having me, Sunny. First question we have for you is, tell us about your journey into. Into sports media and into writing about hockey.
[00:11:54] Speaker A: Sure, yeah. Well, Taylor's not gonna like me telling the story, but I'm gonna tell it.
The reason I got into journalism was because of a guy named Taylor McKee who way back in the day asked me to write a story for the UFC newspaper's sports section. The Gauntlet was the newspaper.
Yeah. So I started. That was my first ever experience, like doing anything in terms of journalism was writing. I think I wrote like the top 10 heart trophy favorites, and it was like 3,000 words or something ridiculous like that.
And yeah, I just kind of fell in love with that.
Eventually kept writing for the Gauntlet, eventually became sports editor there, went from there to master of Journalism program at Ryerson here in Toronto. So moved to Toronto maybe five years ago now.
And the main reason for that was because I kind of felt like being out west in Calgary. The only way to get to, you know, Sportsnet or TSN or, you know, working with an NHL team seemed to be doing an internship and like getting my foot in the door. And when I was there, I could try to, you know, make an impression.
So that's what happened. Halfway through, it's a two year program. Halfway through, I got an internship with Sportsnet.
Like, half of it was with Hockey Night Canada on the broadcast side, and then half of it was with Sportsnet Digital.
When I was there, I just pitched like a million stories as much as I possibly could and like wrote as much as I possibly could.
And I was working at the score at the time. And then I eventually kind of transitioned over to working for Sportsnet and kind of went from intern to, you know, news desk to like, higher role in the news desk to now my position, which is staff writer and feature writer, kind of just writing about hockey and mostly focusing on social issues and hockey.
[00:13:57] Speaker B: Now for, for the audience here, what is a features writer? What does that mean? What does it mean to be a features writer?
[00:14:04] Speaker A: So features writer is basically, I mean, everything's kind of digital now for the most part. And at Sportsnet the features are digital. But essentially a magazine feature would differ from if you're, if you're, you know, a news writer, you're writing shorter news stories or, you know, if you're covering the game, you're writing shorter gamers on, you know, what has happened in a particular game. Whereas a magazine feature would be a long form piece that would be, you know, if a normal story is 5, 6, 700 words, long form feature would be, you know, 3,000 or, you know, 5, 6, 7,000.
And the thing that appealed to me most about feature writing was you also have to write like narrative scenes. So every magazine feature will start with scene writing and it's kind of, you know, partly also talking, you know, talking about bigger issues and, you know, tackling much bigger kind of questions, you know, in this case in sports and, you know, you're going to a place and writing a scene as you would in a novel and putting people in a place. So it's just kind of a whole different version of storytelling from kind of other forms of journalism.
[00:15:08] Speaker B: And is features writing something that you, you remember reading about hockey specifically growing up, or is this something that you came to more as you started trying to write your own features?
[00:15:18] Speaker A: Definitely came to it later. I mean, I think once I started, and I think when I first started I was trying to do versions of feature writing in news which, like, did not work at all, and everything was just too long and made no sense.
And then when I was in my master's, we had a feature writing course, and I kind of discovered, like, okay, this is what I've been looking for. This is, like, the version of this I want to do.
Yeah. And it was kind of from there, it probably wasn't until my master's that I really started to dive deeper into that. And, you know, there's an amazing podcast slash website called Long form that's just like a collection of the best. I mean, there's a bunch of different versions of it, too, but this one, you know, it's another kind of collection of just amazing features from, like, every outlet. That one's mostly American.
And then just, like, writers talking about how they wrote their stories, how they reported their stories. So, yeah, it was from there that I kind of just like, dove all into it and realized that was kind of where I wanted to focus.
[00:16:18] Speaker B: So when you're writing a feature for hockey, when you're writing about hockey in general. So you said you had. You have obviously a formal journalism training. Did you have an idea of what the hockey audience was going to be like in terms of their. The readership? Like, what. What kinds of things hockey readers read? Or does that something you have to learn by sort of seeing the responses to your pieces?
[00:16:37] Speaker A: Honestly, I don't really think about it that much because I find most of the stories I write about are probably not that appealing to wider hockey audience, and I think that's part of why I do it. And especially for sportsnet, who has, like, a massive audience, because I try to write about things that I think, like, those people should care about, but maybe haven't been that exposed to yet. So I think for Sportsnet, obviously their audience is most hockey fans in Canada, like, your average hockey fan who would be watching NHL games and everything, because that's why people come to Sportsnet. And so the stories I've done haven't necessarily been thinking about the stories those people want to read. I mean, because those are kind of obvious. Like, you know, I think anything that's, like, interesting about the NHL, those people would be interested in. But I think for me, it's mostly like, you know, we have an audience here that's captivated by the NHL and, like, deeper stories into the NHL, and let's kind of pivot and be like, hey, there's all these other things happening that are also worth knowing about are people. And not necessarily, like, terrible things happening too, but also Just like interesting people that are kind of on the fringes of the sport who have interesting stories and are worth kind of knowing about.
[00:17:58] Speaker B: So, yeah, I think that definitely speaks to the way that you, you craft your stories. These are, these are, generally speaking, the only places you're going to be able to see some of the stories that you cover are in your writing. They're not covering the same sort of territory over and over and over again. What about the hockey world? When you're looking at the hockey world in general, what catches your attention when you're trying to select a story to write about? What do you think? Oh, I think I want to write about that for my next feature.
[00:18:24] Speaker A: I think. I mean, I think everybody's kind of perception of the hockey world is shaped by, you know, their own experience in it. And for me, obviously, being somebody who doesn't look like, you know, the average hockey fan or, you know, the average hockey player, especially in the NHL, I think I'm more aware of, you know, all the other people that are in a similar position. And I find there's so many people in this sport who have, like, interesting stories because they've had to go through that journey, you know, so whether it's prospects in the NHL that are, you know, having to deal with this whole other side of, you know, being a hockey player, but also dealing with all these other things in their life because, you know, they're dealing with racism or, you know, homophobia or whatever it may be, or, you know, whether it's, you know, coaches in the league that have had to deal with different things. I think there's just like, I always find there's so many people whose stories are kind of more complicated than people realize because there are just certain things about their lives that complicated. And you know, like. So, for example, the first feature I wrote was on Hockey Night Punjabi.
And that was actually my master's like, thesis essentially.
Then it became my first long form feature for Sportsman. And the reason I wanted to write that story is because there have been a ton of stories written about those guys and every single one.
Like, one of the first things they asked was like, how did you guys get into hockey?
And I was kind of like, how do you think they got into hockey? Like, they're people that were born in Canada. Like, you would never be like a Sidney Crosby. How did you get into hockey? And he was like, I'm a human being that lives in Canada. So, like, I've been surrounded by it my entire life. And their answer was always just like, yeah, I mean, we, like, watched hockey growing up and that was pretty much it. You know what I mean? So I was like, there's a much deeper story here than is being covered because you just don't know, like, what questions to ask.
And once I kind of, you know, started talking to those guys, there was actually this incredible story about how they started Hockey Night Punjabi. But then they felt like they didn't want it to be, you know, gimmicky or silly. They wanted it to be like, something that could rival Hockey Night in Canada. And like, you know, if we're gonna do a show for our community, it needs to be as good as the shows for other communities. And they went through this, like, super intense process of, like, you know, deciding which, you know, Punjabi words they were gonna use and which terms they were gonna use. And they changed everything about the show. And there's this whole, like, great story then, right? But I think I was aware of different questions to ask because I understood their story a bit better because of, like, my own life experience.
So I find a lot of the stories I do are not necessarily tied to my own experience, but like, here's a person that's in this hockey world and has, like, you know, gone through interesting things, but also nobody's really asking about the right part of their story. You know what I mean? Because we're so focused on like the kind of made NHL stuff.
[00:21:32] Speaker B: What a great way to summarize the Haruna Rein Singh story there as well. Where, like, you grew up in Brooks, right? I mean, Brooks, Alberta. I mean, that's a. The answer is normally something about Wayne Gretzky. It's like, well, yeah, of course, look at his. When he was born, like, yeah.
[00:21:47] Speaker A: Like everybody else.
[00:21:49] Speaker B: What have you learned about. Because doing feature writing is such an immersive process that you sort of were describing there. It's such a perfect personalizing process as well. Have you learned anything about hockey culture through the process of feature writing that you maybe didn't know beforehand, or is it reinforcing things you knew before entering the feature writing process?
[00:22:07] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, a little of both. I mean, I, you know, was aware that hockey is extremely flawed going into it, because I think anybody who's spent like any time looking into that subject, it's like, fairly obvious. And I think like, the. The closer you get to it, the more you realize how many more issues there are and how much work still needs to be done. Because it's. It's kind of like a mind blowing thing, right? There's. There's like an immense need for progress in so many areas. And it's definitely, you know, there have definitely been strides made in a number of those areas. But I think, you know, there's so much still that has to be done. And for me, it feels like there's so many stories still to tell that, like, you know, any of these, like, singular stories, whether it's on racism or sexism or abuse or whatever it may be, there are hundreds of other stories, right? There are hundreds of other people who have gone through similar things and who, you know, serve to have their stories told. And so I think that's the biggest thing for me. The closer I've gotten to it, you just realize how much bigger the networks are of people who kind of haven't been heard yet.
[00:23:20] Speaker B: And you've sort of generally alluded to this before, but you're an observer of other sports as well, in addition to hockey, is, again, certainly working for sportsnet, a company that covers many different sports.
How would you assess the current state of hockey media when it comes to serving those communities? Do you believe that the media as a whole in Canada specifically, is doing a good enough job, or do you think that this is something that maybe even there's a space for new forms of media, or do you think that existing media institutions in Canada can cover these stories?
[00:23:57] Speaker A: I mean, I think it's much better than it was even five years ago when I started. You know what I mean? I think there's way more room to talk about all of these issues. I mean, there's way more room for.
There's like, a great need for more investigative journalism, you know, more feature writing, more just in general coverage of all these issues, because there is, you know, a very small number of people that are focused on this all the time. And I don't necessarily think that's because everybody else doesn't care. I think, you know, some people have just, like, never realized how prominent these problems are because they're so focused on just, you know, the NHL and what's happening in the NHL and, like, the stuff that we all care about as hockey fans. And I think you do have to.
It's not always, you know, obvious to the need to just, like, take a step back and look at everything that's going on. But, you know, I think there. There are a ton of young journalists that are doing a lot of, you know, writing interesting stories. I think, like, a lot of the people that are kind of. I've come up alongside or I've seen come up, you know, at the same time as me, I'm seeing them write about all of these issues much more. And I think. I think this kind of new generation of journalists understands, like, how strange it is to not cover this. Like, these are the main stories that are affecting the sport. You know what I mean? This isn't like an interesting thing on the side. Like, this is the story, all these things that are happening.
So I think it's. I think there's definitely more room for more work to be done, but I do think that there are more people writing about this stuff kind of every year, and I think that's just going to keep growing as we move forward, for sure.
[00:25:40] Speaker B: Thanks for sharing. That's really good insight. I mean, that's something that the digital space that you're very familiar with has created a lot more room. I think at times, I think we forget what things were like inside the 1990s. We actually talk about this earlier in this course that, you know that covering Hockey in the 90s, you had immense amount of power as a local journalist, and that power wasn't always centralized in the healthiest spaces. One thing that I'm fascinated by in your responses there is essentially the relationship between the media and the athletes that are covered. So you're. As a features writer, you're able to really dig in deep. But, you know, when you're covering the sport as a whole, sometimes there's a little bit of acrimony between the athletes and the institution. Have you experienced a receptiveness towards media as an institution? Maybe not so much in your feature subjects, but generally speaking, your experience with athletes, do they feel. With hockey players specifically in this sense, do you feel like there's a distrust towards your role as a member of the media, or have they been really welcoming to your presence there?
[00:26:42] Speaker A: I think it really depends on what your role is and what your reputation is and.
And even just, like, how you go about things in the moment, you know, during the process. Like, you know, I think the place you see them most often is, you know, athletes and beat writers and, you know, people who don't know. Beat writers are the reporters that cover the teams every day. They, like, you know, write off every game, every practice, but they're there all the time.
And, you know, like anybody else, there are some B writers who are amazing and some who aren't. And, you know, people have different, like, motivations and processes and, you know, routines and everything. And there. There are a ton of examples of, you know, B writers being, like, unnecessarily unfair and harsh. On players, especially kind of in the old newspaper days.
And, you know, there are other B writers who are amazing. So I think it kind of depends, you know, for feature writers. Like, most of my experiences have been by the time I'm talking to a player, it's, like, pretty clear I'm doing something that's, you know, very thoughtful and big picture and, like, planned out that it's not gonna be.
It's not gonna be some, you know, rapid thing where your words are gonna be taken out of context and it's gonna be like, you know, I just need to get a headline up based on what you say. It's like, very clearly like, let's talk about your, like, life as a whole. You know what I mean? And I just think, you know, even in the interview process, like, it's like talking to anybody, you can kind of feel somebody's vibe, whether they, you know, like, care about what you're saying or they're trying to get you to say certain things, or they're, you know, genuinely interested in your responses and, you know, whether they've done enough research to ask things about your life that show they, you know, care about getting your story right. There's like a whole. I think it's, you know, there are a lot of different aspects to it. So, I mean, I've never felt that when I've talked to players that, like, some players are more guarded, for sure. I think when you talk to, you know, huge star players that have been interviewed since they were like, 10 years old, they know what's happening, right? They know, like, what the game is. And they just have probably realized a long time ago that it's maybe easier to not say as much because you're not going to have to deal with as much of, you know, anything because they just want to, like, play hockey. And on two interviews.
So, yeah, I think it really depends on what your role is, kind of how you approach those situations.
[00:29:13] Speaker B: I want to expand on something you brought up there because something we talk about frequently, and we're always talking about new avenues of growth for hockey. And most people are a fan of hockey. If you're a hockey fan, but you're also aware of other sports. And if you're aware of other sports, you're probably aware of the fact that in other mainstream North American sports or any global sports, the athletes have a lot higher of an individual profile. And this is something you'll hear constantly. Constantly.
The NHL doesn't market their stars. We don't even have access.
[00:29:40] Speaker A: Blah, blah, blah.
[00:29:40] Speaker B: We don't know anything about Conor McDave. We really don't know anything about Sidney Crosby, a player that is full disclosure. So he's a very large Penguins fan. So, I mean, we know very little about Sidney Crosby. We've talked about Sidney Crosby in this course and how it is truly unique in this way.
Do you feel like there is a tide of change coming soon or do you believe that there's a certain reason that we don't know as much about our hockey players as we know about Patrick Mahomes even, or certainly Aaron Rodgers or even players like Cunha and baseball? We know a lot more about them as human beings and yet there isn't really that relationship between the media and the players themselves as human beings in hockey. Are things changing or are they going to stay the same for a specific reason?
[00:30:28] Speaker A: Yeah, it's funny, I think it's like, I don't even know if it's as much on the relationship between media, but it's so much of the culture of the sport too, actually. It's really funny. I'm writing a story right now on this whole fashion thing that's happening in the NHL, right? And for those who don't know, I mean, the NHL in the CBA has a strict dress code requirement that you have to wear suits and ties to games, which is kind of silly. No other sport has that because it kind of like makes no sense.
But it's just kind of this old school hockey thing that, you know, we all wear suits because we're professional and we, you know, there's obviously a very strong sense of conformity in hockey, which is not, you know, a terrible thing. But, you know, in some ways it's valuable and in some ways it's kind of a strange thing, right?
So in the NBA, like it started with Allen Iverson and then it's grown, you know, over the years there's been this massive shift where the NBA kind of realized a lot of these guys are interested in fashion. Like professional athletes are like young, very wealthy people. So obviously they're interested in things that other young wealthy people would be interested in, including fashion. And so even though it's kind of like a silly light hearted thing, it's become this wave that has allowed people to see players in a completely different way. So, you know, they basically opened it up so players can wear whatever they want. And, you know, walking into games, those like arena entrances have literally now become like runways where, you know, guys are wearing, you know, not only just like wild outfits to go viral but they're also wearing things, you know, T shirts that have personal statements about things they believe in or something. Right. They're supporting causes of this, sporting the communities they come from.
And I talked to, you know, a few stylists who work with some of the top NBA players about like, what is it that these guys are getting from this, right? Especially in the NBA where, you know, in general, because they don't wear helmets, that there are fewer players on a team. They're already, Their profiles are already so much bigger. Like, like Damian Lillard doesn't really need to like go viral with his outfits, people to know who he is.
And what they said was that for them, what matters is they're getting a new avenue to kind of tell their own story.
They don't need to wait for a press conference or something they can show, you know, like Dame, for example, often wears clothes that tie back to Oakland and support like Oakland brands. Or, you know, he'll wear like, oh, you know, it's just a different way to show who they are. And in hockey, we just like, don't have any of that. We like get very little of players being able to show who they are away from the eyes.
And if they do, I mean, it's also kind of vilified sometimes and like, treat it as like, you know, this guy just wants attention but, etc, etc. So I think that's a big thing. Just in general with other sports, they've realized that there's value in letting players show their personality off the ice. They not only leave room for that, they encourage that. Like the NBA had a fashion show at one of the all star games.
And the research on this, like, shows there's a very like, realistic, tangible way this can grow the sport. Right. It's not just like a nice thing. It can actually have a strong impact on how the league is marketed. And you know, fashion is a universal thing that goes beyond sport, right? So if you have an NBA star become like a fashion icon, people who don't care about the NBA, then those people might start caring about the NBA. It's like a very simple process, right? So I think for hockey, like, some guys are just very like low key guys. Like, I think Crosby is like a pretty low key guy. He just like, is a kid from a small town who like really loves hockey. So it's not like, I don't think you're gonna see Sid showing up in like crazy outfits being like, here I am, let me show who I am. You know what I mean? But I Think there are other players who do have that. Like Auston Matthews is super into fashion and I think if you, like, let those players show that you're going to end up knowing more about them, it's going to change how you see those players and it's going to change their willingness to tell you more, to do more features where they talk about their interest in other things. All these players love music and fashion and everything else. Like everybody else, I think they're just very hesitant to tell anybody that because it's not really a thing that's celebrated in the sport. So I think we're definitely seeing that shift with some of the young players coming in now because with social media they're allowed to show a little bit of that and see that it does get a positive response and be like, yeah, why would I not tell people? This is very strange, right? So I do think we're going to see a massive shift over this next kind of decade because I think that new players coming in can see how weird is that.
Everybody's just supposed to kind of be.
[00:35:19] Speaker B: Saying, just bringing back up that culture of conformity point you raised as a sort of reinforcing factor here.
I don't know if people really, again, if you had to describe that culture of conformity, it's something we've talked about frequently in this course and two of the arbiters of this culture of conformity, there's a figure that actually looms large in the fashion department that again, a lot of Canadians are sort of introduced to very young and is definitely was, I should say, a culture setter on many issues relating to hockey.
Former sportsnet employee with a name, last name of a fruit. And it's actually amazing how frequently fashion was brought up with this figure and this culture of uniformity. I mean, the wearing of suits in the CBA is, if you really dig into that in your mind, you sit and noodle that one for a while. It's weird. It's really, really, really weird.
And they already wear a uniform, ladies and gentlemen. I mean, they put it on to play. I mean, they've already got them in their work clothes.
We don't ask employees, generally speaking, who wear uniforms to work, of which there are millions in North America. We don't, generally speaking, care about what they wear to their place of work. That's very unusual. So the NBA and you mentioned Iverson, that sort of, certainly the influence of hip hop that came in the late mid to late 90s, you know, Iverson was at the the forefront of the NBA initially bucked at that big time, hated it. Stern was not a fan of that, as you recall. Not to make this more about the NBA, but then they embraced it and then later have, and now have since recognized the value in it. Both senses, in terms of growing the brand and also the capital V value of this can actually be lucrative for the individuals and the team sometimes. So danhl's stranger, because again, it's not like this has been sort of just ignored. It's actually been reinforced and drilled into a lot of their players. We actually talked about this a little bit in our course. Some of the culture setters in hockey, you think that the last thing in the world you care about is fashion. But it just so happens that one of the largest voices in hockey did care a lot what young boys in the world juniors were wearing to various games. And that is something that still occurs. We see Team Sweden coming off the bus in tracksuits and that's seen as inferior to our young boys in suits. But that's just something that I thought was really interesting about that. And I want to bring things back to that discussion of the media here.
[00:37:47] Speaker A: Where.
[00:37:49] Speaker B: There'S Sonny, that the features writer, and there's Sonny the hockey fan, and there is Sonny, the sort of cultural observer of hockey. When you're observing hockey media as a consumer of hockey media, you must have noticed a number of changes since you started working in journalism. But if you could sort of meld all three of these types of experiences in your own words here, how do you see the role of media in sport in general, but specifically in hockey changing over the next 10 years or so? We hear frequently that I don't know if there's going to be the same type of press conference, beat reporter situation that we've had. And it reminds me a little discussion of radio 10 years ago. Oh, there's not going to be radio in 10 years. Well, there is and it still thrives and radio still exists and serves a purpose. Do you think that there are massive changes coming to the way that hockey media exists within the institution of hockey, or do you think that the structures are, are fairly set for a reason?
[00:38:46] Speaker A: I think there's definitely changes coming in terms of, you know, I see that mostly in kind of the beat writer space because you know, when those positions were established, it was like if you weren't at the game, you didn't know what happened at the game. You know what I mean? Like years ago you needed somebody to tell you what happened in the game. And even when you know Highlights first started coming out, it's like, okay, if you didn't go to the game and you didn't happen to catch the highlights on tv, you still didn't really know what happened in the game. Like, you might not even know the score else you see the score in, like, your newspaper. But that doesn't tell you anything right now, obviously, that's completely different because, I mean, you can watch the game on your phone, you can watch the highlights on your phone. You can check the scores in real time. You know, if you're on Twitter, you're gonna see, like, every specific thing that happens in the game that might not even make it into, you know, the box score. Any, like, altercation or anything. You know, it's going to be gift and meme and stuff times a million.
So I think in that sense, sometimes it feels like it's going to be difficult to keep telling those stories of, you know, here's what happened in the game.
But I do think one interesting thing that, you know, this is partly why I've gravitated to feature writing. Like, you're always going to need that deeper story because that, like, you know, a lot of those stories don't just come out. It takes a lot of. You know, I think in some of the stories I've written, it's like, you're not gonna get that from press conferences or, you know, just watching the games. It's like, you need somebody to be like, okay, I'm gonna go travel to this place, spend time with this person and talk to them. But then I'm gonna talk to, like, everybody they know. Then I'm gonna go, like, you know, visit this town where they grew up. And people in this town are gonna say, like, oh, yeah, this guy used to come here and get, like, a ham san.
Like, talk about that guy. And then, you know, through that, weave that all together and, like, paint this picture. That's, like, a deeper thing that, like, you still really can't get unless somebody does that. You know what I mean? Because the.
I mean, the players don't have time to, like, tell their story in that way, and it just doesn't show up by just watching the sport or watching their interviews. So I think there's going to be more of an emphasis on those deeper stories. Not even necessarily feature writing, but even just in terms of kind of beat writing shifting to be, you know, less on what's happening in a game and even, you know, what's happening in a season. Even just talking about a game in the context of Something a little bit bigger and kind of widening the scope a little bit more. You're already kind of seeing that with the athletic, right? And kind of the way they approach the kind of as close as they come to daily reporting, it's always like a little bit bigger picture. So I feel like there's going to be more of a shift to that. And I think, you know, people are starting to realize, you know, you see even. Even away from writing, when you look at, you know, some of the TV documentaries and, you know, the all or nothing thing on Amazon and all that kind of stuff, there's like a recognition that, okay, we're now at a point where we know everything that's happening right now, you know, and we know everything that the players are saying in their press conferences and stuff.
But what we care about even more now is, you know, what's happening behind the scenes. Where do these players grow up? What was their life like before we saw them in these games? You know, and for the type of writing, I do too, like, okay, what are, like, the overarching issues that are affecting all these things we've seen? You know, who. Who is, like, not in this picture and who is being excluded from this picture? Or, like, what are all these people that we're seeing every day worried about that they're not telling us? Right? So I think there's still, like, so much room to dig into kind of deeper stories. And I think that up until now has been kind of a thing on the side, and the main focus has been on, like, the daily right now. And I think we're going to start to see those flips just because of how social media has kind of changed the right now.
[00:42:54] Speaker B: Well, Sunny, thank you so much for all of your time, all of your insight. We won't keep you any longer. If they wonder if our students want to read your writing, where can they find it?
[00:43:02] Speaker A: They can go to Sportsnet, CA, or my Twitter, you know, whatever. Yeah, I'm sure you'll see it.
[00:43:10] Speaker B: What's your Twitter handle so they can go and follow you?
[00:43:12] Speaker A: Scratchdeva, Sunny. So it's my name reversed because some guy has my name in the normal order and doesn't even tweet anything, which is the worst.
[00:43:23] Speaker B: We'll get him. We'll get him.
Thank you so much, Sunny, on behalf of the whole class.
[00:43:29] Speaker A: Thanks for having me.
[00:43:34] Speaker B: So that is Sunny and I have posted a link to some of Sonny's writing on the Brightspace page. You can actually get an impression of everything he's written. This past year feature writing is a part of what he does for sportsnet, but he also covers a broad spectrum of topics, including the recent Leafs playoff run. He covered that for Sportsnet as well. You'll see that he does some of the more day to day stuff for the NHL as well. He's a one of I think a great few number of professional writers who work full time writing in the sports space and he's an extremely gifted writer and extremely gifted features writer certainly. And if you've got any questions about that, if you industry again send me an email. I'd happy to pass them along to Sunny directly. I encourage you to go and check out his writing. I've posted one of his features, his most recent one from this past week on the Bryce Space page. But also go and have a look at the way he does some of the more minute and detailed work about the Leafs to get a sense of what his job also entails on the day to day sort of sense so that's Sunny, that's Michelle. If you've got any questions for Michelle about about this, her her job there with the Ice Dogs, or if you even have a question about the events themselves, pass them along to me and I can funnel them through to Michelle if we can, if she needs to answer those questions. And again, make sure we're keeping up with our forum responses and our audio responses. I'm really enjoying listening to to your thoughts on this course so far. Make sure you're doing those readings and I will be back with the second half of this lecture later on.
[00:45:00] Speaker C: Because their minds are made up and.
[00:45:02] Speaker A: Course it's all okay to carry on that way cause over there there's broken bones, there's only music so that there's new ringtones and it don't take no Sherlock Holmes to see it's a little different around here, don't get me wrong. Notice Bo.
