Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:12] Speaker B: Welcome to the second half of week three. We're going to be joined today by a guest lecture from Pete Soberlek. I want to really appreciate all of you who sent in some questions he got. I amalgamated a few of them into one, a couple of them by name, but thanks so much for passing those along.
Pete was really generous with his time and so this one goes a little bit longer than normal but still less than an hour. And so I encourage you here to listen through. But I also want you to listen and keep a keen eye ear open for the topics that we've been covering this week with hockey demographics. So I'm going to be asking you to do this week for audio responses.
[00:00:42] Speaker C: Rather than put it at the end.
[00:00:43] Speaker B: I'm going to put it at the top because I need you as you're listening to Peak's lecture to sort of have a keen ear open.
I'm going to be asking you to to respond to a point of connection that you find between this week's reading about hockey demographics and something that Pete gave us in his interview. So it's something that maybe you think is connected. If you haven't read through that article, now is a good time to do it. Make sure you've done that before you listen to Pete's guest lecture. But what I want you to do is listen through when you find something that you think is a good comparison to something from the reading. Be specific when you reference it here. So what you're going to say is like hey, hey, I'm Tyler, I'm Jane and I'm making an audio response to this. Pete Soberlack guest lecture at 1643 Pete says this.
So I want you to note specifically the timestamp of where Pete says it so I can go and check and really dig into what you're bringing into this conversation as a comparison between the article from Kitchen and Haida and the guest lecture from from Pete.
[00:01:44] Speaker C: So again, as a just as a.
[00:01:46] Speaker B: Brief reminder, Pete was a first round draft pick of the Edmonton Oilers. He is now working in Thompson Rivers University. The front part of the interview got a little chopped up, but he's working in Thompson Rivers University in Kamloops, bc. He works in sports psychology. He works as a facilitator. He also works in the safe sports space and he has a lot of awesome stories about his journey through the game of hockey. Pete has a very unique perspective, someone who's been to a very, very high level and someone who's had a very unique experience with the game itself. And I just want to again thank.
[00:02:15] Speaker C: Pete for his time. If he's listening to this, I think.
[00:02:17] Speaker B: I'm gonna be sending this along to him. I want to thank all of you for asking questions again, just as a reminder, listen through, note down something specific that Pete says that you're interested in. Note the time which he said it during this audio lecture. And then include that in your audio response. So that's what you're gonna be up to this this week. And we're gonna hit to head to Pete's guest. LE.
[00:02:50] Speaker C: Thompson, Rivers University Assistant teaching Professor. And Pete, what was the game? The title you were saying is also another one of your titles at TRU in terms of working with the athletic department.
[00:02:59] Speaker A: Yeah. So my contract, I'm 50% faculty with physical education and I'm 50% with TRU Wolfpack athletics. So my responsibilities there, my title is athletic performance Advisor. So I do everything from counseling athletes, coaches in sports, psychology, performance enhancement issues, mental health, all sorts of things. So it's a great job for me. Cause I'm dealing with people. And that was so difficult about COVID I went from my.
My work is face to face and building relationships and conversation and listening and just for that to stop, it was difficult. So I'm so thankful and grateful that we're able to get back to that somewhat. So I feel myself pretty lucky person to do the work that I do.
[00:03:55] Speaker C: Fantastic. Thanks so much for sitting down with us. And we have a lot of awesome questions submitted.
And let's get started really, really broadly. Pete, what was your earliest memory playing hockey?
[00:04:07] Speaker A: Oh, my earliest memory.
It's funny going back now coaching my son, my earliest memory are just the experience of being in the old ice rinks and the smell and the coolness and just the excitement of just being there and then stepping on the ice and just the feeling it's.
If somebody's never skated before or played the game, it's just. It's like nothing else really to compare. There's nothing really to compare to in terms of the feeling, I guess any type of skating. But it's really a unique experience. And I just remember, I just remember absolutely loving every second of it.
And so as a young kid, for sure, just.
And the social aspect and even the competition. But mostly just the being able to be there and be a part of such a cool game and sport.
[00:05:11] Speaker C: You're right. That feeling when the feeling of gliding is such a unique one to hockey, right. You're there, you're able to glide on ice. It's such a Strange, strange sensation for the first time. And when you were playing hockey early on, when was the first time you thought to yourself, you know, I'm pretty good at this. This could be something I'd do for a while?
[00:05:30] Speaker A: Well, I think at a pretty young age. I remember there was a point when I.
Well, at a young age, I just loved it so much, and I didn't really care in a lot of ways. I just enjoyed it so much, and it just was something that came naturally to me, and I just felt good on the ice. But I remember to this day, I was about. I think I was about 14, and I was listening to Kamloops Blazer game on the radio.
And I had spent a couple of years, you know, being a fan and listening on the radio and thinking, wow, wow, this is cool. I think I want to do that someday. And then I remember a point where something switched in my head and I said to myself, I think I'm gonna do this.
I think I'm going to be able to do this. So it went from there to just actually going from a dream to really becoming a reality for me and thinking, okay, yeah, I think this is going to happen.
And it eventually, you know, in its own way and path, it did.
[00:06:39] Speaker C: Absolutely. And in those early years when you sort of flicked that switch to saying, like, I think I can do this, was there a coach that you. That really guided you through that. That point in your life, or was it something that you sort of said on your own?
[00:06:50] Speaker A: Well, I think I had a really supportive family. My dad was my coach for a few years and then always just really had a lot of really positive influences.
Just in almost like when you're on a team, there's, you know, with a certain. It's almost like a family. And I think everyone. You just. When you have a positive relationship and there's a positive environment and culture, I just always felt I had that until, you know, it started getting a little bit more, you know, expectations and pressure and results driven. That's when it becomes a little bit more complicated and difficult.
All through my childhood and younger years, it was just always. It was about the people and the energy and the excitement and the fun.
[00:07:43] Speaker C: And you mentioned that the pressure and the expectations there.
What was it like playing junior hockey at such a young age? What was that jump like to play in junior hockey?
[00:07:54] Speaker A: Well, to be honest, I think, you know, I've said this before. I think a lot for me, that transition going from minor hockey to junior hockey was a difficult one for me because you have to remember back in the mid-80s, it was very violent and it was, the culture was, you know, there weren't a lot of, how do I put it that there wasn't a lot of outside influence. These were closed door cultures. They were run by old school philosophies and at times very harmful and very, you know, skewed and distorted perspectives in terms of, of expectations on young kids and the way that young people were developed in the game. I think that's changed quite a bit. But that was a real challenge for me in terms of. I went from, and I think about this too a lot is as a hockey player in minor hockey, see in bantam, you know, for or what do they call it? U15, it was really about back then, it was really in minor hockey, it was really about finesse and skill. And I could go and compete with somebody in the corner and I could use my skill or that player could use their skill to battle and try to come up with puck. Where as soon as that cage came off and the visor came on, then it became a lot to me about violence and intimidation.
And now I was facing, you know, it was really kind of quickly came into reality is like, okay, now this is more than just competing, you know, in a physically respectable way, a respectful way. It was more the tactics of violence, intimidation.
And that was a challenge for me because my personality, I was, you know, I'm 6 foot 4, 200 pounds and I was expected to be mean, aggressive and fight.
And I had a hard time doing that.
You know, I had a hard time. I struggled with that for many years. I was involved in a couple of fights where you know, at the end of the day I was just trying to protect myself. But I did some damage to some people and I had some damage done to me. And that was the thing that eventually took that and other things in a cultural sense, but that took a lot of the love of the game away from me. So. So that was a challenge. I think today, now I'm more confident with my son playing hockey, that it's less about that, it's more about finesse and skill. And the violence and intimidation tactics are still present, but they're very peripheral now for the most part.
[00:10:48] Speaker C: So that's fantastic insight there, that jump and the sort of increasing the ratcheting up of violence in junior.
And did you find yourself able to still succeed in that environment even in an environment of hyper violence like that?
[00:11:04] Speaker A: Absolutely. You know, and that's the thing that was the goal of, I think of the culture Back then, as you, you know, and even if you throw in different situations, but it was to kind of create, you know, I mean, we talk about it in hazing and initiation. Kind of the theory and research is kind of basically breaking down that individual and rebuilding them as something new that fits the culture of where you are. So, yeah, that was a challenge for me.
I still love the game. I mean, at one point, you know, I wanted to be a goal scorer and a playmaker, and, you know, I didn't get involved in physical. In fighting a lot. But at one point I had a couple of fights. And then I read the paper one day and I think it was the Regina. Regina leader post identified me as one of the top 10 fighters in the Western Hockey League. And I was like, what?
I don't want that. I don't want to be labeled that. I was like, first of all, I don't like to fight. I don't want to fight. I don't want to be seen as a fighter. But I think it was just kind of.
It was a role I fit because of my physical stature and.
And the culture at the time. And I think that's just the way it was. But I struggled with that. I had a hard time getting to be physically aggressive, mean and violent. I just struggled with that.
[00:12:34] Speaker C: Fantastic. And similar to a question we've gone with before, but did you reach a point in which you realized or someone explicitly told you to get to that next level, you're going to need to be a certain kind of player? Was there a pressure on you to change your game if you wanted to leave Junior?
[00:12:51] Speaker A: Absolutely. And when I, you know, when I was drafted into the NHL, I think that was an expectation of me, too. And I was told that for sure. And I mean, not to, like, cast any blame or any ill feelings towards it, that that was. That was the way things were. That's what everybody went through. I mean, those were the expectations.
And, you know, but I was absolutely told that you need to be more physical. You need to be, you know, without saying it, coaches will say, well, I never have ever sent a player to fight. Wow.
I mean, the implicit or the, you know, the expectation is there.
Nobody had to tell. People knew what the expectations were in order, and if they weren't followed, then it would lead to probably, you know, not a positive result in terms of your career or your future.
[00:13:48] Speaker C: And that's a fascinating topic to me, that right there, that course of influence of these sort of things. What age did you feel that the first time? Do you think that you felt that sort of like, I know what I'm expected to do, but no one's going to tell me to do it.
[00:14:05] Speaker A: I think just generally entering that world, as I say, going, so let's focus in junior hockey here. So as a young person going from the minor hockey scene to the junior hockey scene, I mean we're Talking about sometimes 15 and 16 year old kids, you know, instantaneously, almost they're expected to behave like adults and perform like professionals. And that's a big jump for a lot of.
And it's interesting sometimes when we take for granted that will come naturally or be an easy transition for athletes. And I spend a lot of time talking to Western Hockey League teams and different players and I'm always astonished when you see them on the ice and they look bigger than life and then I get into a dressing room or a conference room with them and they're young kids. And so I think the expectations and the speed at which these expectations are placed upon young athletes can sometimes be a challenge. Not for everyone. For me it was.
There were many things that were challenging, but that was a big one, I think. And again, not being a person who easily accepts being in a role like that, it was really a challenge. It was one of the main things that took the love out of the game. For me.
I didn't really, I didn't really, I didn't really appreciate that I could stand next to a player and say to myself, well, I'm going to beat you with my skill within the rules and athleticism. Where that player could say, well, I'm going to cross check your teeth out.
And when I played, guys would cross check your teeth out. And I saw it more than once. And so, you know, so it's, it's. I try to tell athletes and even people about the game. The game in the 80s is. It's night and day, the difference in the game. Like it's almost. Sometimes it's not even the same game.
So that's a little bit.
[00:16:20] Speaker C: That's fantastic. And on this topic, there's a question submitted from a student of mine named Alex Darling.
And they ask what resources were missing because this is on this very topic from junior hockey players during this time. What things do you think that are needed now or maybe even are present now that weren't there for you when you were in junior?
[00:16:42] Speaker A: Oh, there's a lot, I think mostly that the availability and the freedom and the openness to show vulnerability and show.
How do I put. Just to show, I guess not Weakness, because mental health and challenges and issues, it's not weakness.
They're just issues that people face. And I think the difference now is we are proactively approaching those issues and we're providing resources for individuals to seek help. And not only seek help, but just that we're having the conversation, just that we're saying it's okay, you know, it's okay not to be okay as athletes, we're told, you know, or we're kind of geared to push our feelings down and not let that interfere with our performance. And well, if, you know, if you're not feeling well, that shows weakness. And, you know, there'll be someone right there next to take your job if you can't pull out of this things. So the competitiveness is still there. I just think the overall culture, the fact that you can look at this in many institutions, the fact that outsiders are now looking in and we're asking questions, why is that happening? Why did that happen?
So very much.
The old boys closed door club, which still is there, it's still really there in a lot of cases, but it's getting much better. And you know, I try to take an active role in trying to help that, you know, along with my good friend Sheldon Kennedy, who we've done a ton of work together. Like his work has enabled us to talk about or to help open the doors of some of these institutions that are, you know, very much in need of some outside examination. And not in a bad way, not to criticize, but to evolve. And you know, when you look at it from a sociological point of view, a socio cultural point of view, it's just we need to get better.
It needs to grow and expand and really catch up with the time. So I guess in a nutshell, that for me is a positive thing.
I like the less focus on violence.
You know, I like that we're looking at inclusivity and we're looking at gender issues and all. Like we're just, we're opening up the culture to, I guess, scrutiny in an attempt to make or to help it get better and ask those questions that weren't asked before.
[00:19:34] Speaker C: That's a good point. I mean, the something we talked about in the class is these homosocial environments that are created in hockey locker rooms and the sort of things that can breed in the dark in that ways and how, you know, we talked about this in class as well, that hockey locker room is not a great reflection of society in terms of diversity, in terms of many different things.
You mentioned that opening it up to scrutiny. And that's a really interesting point.
Do you believe that a lot of the sort of cultural issues in hockey that you experienced would have benefited from larger scale scrutiny from outside organizations?
[00:20:12] Speaker A: You mean? So back when I played.
[00:20:14] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.
[00:20:15] Speaker A: And I. Oh, absolutely. And I think again, I mean, we can look at all sorts of different institutions that have had historically had, you know, these type of, well, situations that have occurred. And I don't want to get into that over the last 30 years, all the, you know, I'm not here to slag.
It was just. That's the way things were.
And the fact now that we're, you know, there are organizations and individuals and educational platforms and awareness that is so much a part of the experience now.
And trust me, it still needs to be. We've got a long way to go.
But in that sense, back then, there were, you know, my experiences in the mid-80s in junior hockey. Back then it was, you know, whoever was at the helm of the ship was. Was able to do what they wanted to do and no one would ask questions. And that's not a healthy, I mean, you know, not. Yeah, again, this is the Western Hockey League or the NHL or the NFL or they like, they're all institutions that have evolved and it's not worth going back and I don't think placing blame, but it is worth really understanding where we were and where we've come and still where we need to go. And that's kind of the path I've been involved with.
And to be able to also look at it from an academic perspective and just really some almost just retrospective analysis, but also, you know, proactively seeing, okay, what can we do better as we move forward?
[00:22:05] Speaker C: So what would be something. This is a student's submitted question as well.
And this is sort of a broad question, something that you, I'm sure you have a lot of familiarity with. And the notion of safety, I think is something that, you know, there's. There's rules related things we could talk about with player safety and that all stuff's been, you know, discussed to death. But in terms of the sort of an athlete's mental health, what steps can be taken by the chl, Especially when you're doing it at that CHL level where you're dealing with kids, as you mentioned before, you go into these locker rooms and these are kids still. They're kids. I mean, they might look and they've mastered the performance of maturity on the ice. They know all the things that they. They can perform to look like men. But they're 17.
[00:22:49] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:22:50] Speaker C: How can the CHL do a good, better job as a student? Question. A better job keeping their athletes safer in all forms. But we'll stick to the mental side for now.
[00:22:59] Speaker A: And that's a great question. And it happened, just so happens that I'm currently working with the Western Hockey League on that, on those issues and how we can make things better, how the experience can be better for everyone.
And you know, basically, I think what these organizations, including the Western Hockey League are doing really well at is they're building a platform, they're building the scaffolding, they're bringing in programs that are not only, you know, good or effective in terms of liability and you know, from a business aspect, they're also, there's education involved with young athletes right now. And what I'm trying to lend a hand to and to help them build is, you know, and this comes right from, again from my good friend Sheldon Kennedy, is we need to do more than provide programs and some almost peripheral education and policy.
What we need to do is have the conversation on the ground. So we need to have coaches, general managers, players, support staff. They need to be talking about these things, they need to be aware of them. And the discussion needs to stay on a day to day basis. Just like practicing, like you're practicing your power play. Well, we also need to continuously be practicing how we treat each other and being aware and not being bystanders when we see things happen. So the Western Hockey League is, and I'm familiar with the Western Hockey League and the people there and I think they've done an excellent job and they're continuing to work at this and I'm happy to be a part of that. And I think it's really, it's much needed.
We have to have this, like to say this stuff needs to be in our kitchen all the time. We need to be talking about this. We need to be, it needs to be present, not just here, take a course online and then we don't follow up. Like, what is that doing? You know, so I'm a big proponent. And again, this comes from Sheldon too, is getting the conversation on the ground in front of people on a daily basis so we can, you know, continue to learn how to support, help families, players, organizations. And you know, the interesting thing is from an organizational perspective, if you have healthy, happy, confident athletes, you're going to be more successful. So why don't we give them resources and have the conversation to help them be healthy, happy and confident rather than say, well, if you're not healthy, happy or confident, maybe you don't fit here. So before we wouldn't, we were too scared to have that conversation. Now we are having that. And whether you like it or not, we're having it. And if it's not your culture or your organization, people are having it around you. So let's get on board and do that. And I think in the Canadian Hockey League, Western Hockey League, and I think they're doing a good job at trying to move forward. So I support that. And I think that's probably the biggest area of what's changing and what we need. We just need more, we need more awareness and support.
[00:26:28] Speaker C: So this is a question related to something you said there with regards to, you know, we need to do a better job basically. Not to put words in your mouth, but there needs to be a way to sort of acknowledge there's other ways to be a hockey player. And I have a student submit a question here that asks you if you, when you were playing in your days, did you believe that there would, was there a sort of prescriptive type of hockey player or was, were you sort of trying to be pushed into a specific kind of role on that? More on the question. I think there's, I'm more interested in sort of off the ice dimensions where, you know, there's specific roles on the ice. And you mentioned earlier that, you know, your size sort of was a prescriptive element of becoming a bit of a more physical player. But off the ice, did you feel that there was a coercive influence to become a certain kind of person?
[00:27:14] Speaker A: I think so.
In terms of, you know, when we look at culture and I think what drove that was the fact that you were taking 15, 16, 17 year old, 18 year old people and trying to have them understand what it's, and emulate the characteristics of a professional athlete, you know, adult, you know, so very much trying to, you know, here's what you do as a hockey player. You don't do that, you don't do that, you don't do that. But here's what you do. You show up on time, you, you know, which are all positive things. But I think, I think, you know, to try to answer the question, I think there was a, yeah, almost a toolkit of necessities that you would have or need to have in order to survive. And if you didn't have that, you wouldn't last long back then.
[00:28:16] Speaker C: I mean that's, that that sounds enormously difficult to process when you're such a young age. I Mean, that seems like how do you, you know, how do you deal with that? Especially if you've left home for the first time, you know, some of these kids are doing enough.
[00:28:32] Speaker A: Well, yeah, I, I left home at just barely after 16 to live in a different part of Canada with a strange family. There was enough going on there and then, and then thrown into this environment.
And it's not about the people. The people, when you look back at that, the people weren't bad people, but that's what they knew and that's what we knew and accepted. But that doesn't mean it's right and it doesn't mean that we shouldn't look back and really learn from what's gone on. And I think there's a lot of that going on, which is positive.
[00:29:07] Speaker C: Right. And you mentioned sort of to switch gears a little bit, you mentioned the sort of love that you had in those early years, that sort of the purity that you felt when you first playing. When was the first time that you were introduced to the idea that this thing that I love is also a business, it's also an industry? When was the first time that you really felt, wow, this is a business?
[00:29:31] Speaker A: I don't know. I didn't really, I didn't really focus on a lot of the things going on within. Like it was, for me, it was more in terms of my performance and my preparation and, you know, obviously the results and the outcome and. But for sure, well, once I got drafted and signed my first contract, that was a real eye opener in terms of, okay, you know, how does this work? And so I think the business. And it's interesting you asked that because for me, business and money and like, as a junior hockey player and even going through pro, we had everything done for us. I had an agent, I didn't touch my money. I didn't know where it went or what it did. I just had a bank card. You know, I had people telling me when to eat, what time to get on the bus, where are you coming, like, So I think the whole idea of we were so focused on just doing what we had to do to survive on a daily basis and compete and be competitive. A lot of the business stuff didn't really come into play for me, but like I say, until I got a little bit higher up out of junior hockey, and then you start to think about, okay, I need to make a living, you know, it's just not, it's not just a game anymore, it's a career of future. And then that's when things Start to become more, I guess, involved from other than, you know, as a junior player and a young kid, you just hockey, hockey, hockey, hockey. I get home for the summer, I take two weeks off, I'm hockey training again, and back to, you know, so it's very almost tunnel visioned. And that's what it. I think in a lot of ways that's what coaches, general managers like they wanted a kid that just show up and produce without any distractions or stuff on the side. Well, unfortunately, young people are very complex and they all come from different experiences and life paths and everyone needs that. But back then it wasn't, you know, that wasn't really, I guess, something that was at the forefront.
[00:31:49] Speaker C: And that seems universally true for players going through the Canadian Hockey League, the ushl, the ncaa, you name it.
Certainly your experience is unique. Certainly your experiences are. What you went through during your junior years was unique. Did you feel like your experiences coming out of junior, did you feel like you were supported adequately by the junior hockey community and then later on by the professional community? Was there an understanding of what had happened to you or your teammates in that way?
[00:32:23] Speaker A: No. And let me give you an example.
But again, this isn't casting blame on the system or the culture. There are certain individuals involved. But, you know, I don't know if you know or your class knows. Like, I was involved in a bus accident in Swift Current where four of my teammates were killed.
I was sitting in the seat right in front of the two seats that were turned around for a card table.
So right behind my head, four of my teammates were killed. I was lucky to survive.
Unfortunately, I, myself and another player witnessed that and were the last two people in the bus. And so, long story short, it was hugely traumatic for me. Like, it changed my life that moment.
And there's other circumstances within junior hockey that were difficult, but that moment changed my life forever because of the fact we had a.
Basically an abuser, Graham James, who was, you know, I mean, a serial abuser of athletes. He was the coach.
He denied any sort of counseling or help for anyone.
So.
And that was because he didn't want anyone coming in and figuring out what was going on.
So I left that incident.
Never was asked how I was doing, never was given any support really, other than, you know, the general. The community was wonderful. They rallied around us. And, you know, there was a lot of young kids that were hurting, but. And of course the families and the players that were lost, it was just devastating. And, you know, but to answer your question, no. I received zero support.
It took me till I was 40 years old to finally understand and seek help and realize that, you know, I had been in fight or flight for, since the time I was 18 years old, like without knowing it. So, you know, I'm divulging a lot of personal stuff, but I feel like I'm happy to do that because it's something that, you know, why it's so important and powerful to me now that we have the resources available.
And I said that in interviews when Humboldt occurred. You know, I said we all, Sheldon and I and Bob and Darren said we want to get out there and try to help and do whatever we can because we didn't have that, you know, other than the people who are close to us.
And that. That, to me that sits. That. That's a difficult thing to process. Like, you know, what would my life have been like if I didn't go through that event or, or I received some help early on. You know, like I say it was, it was 30 years later where I realized what an impact that had made on my life. So that's. That. That for me, I'm okay taking that and I'm okay saying that because I know many of these incidents and all these things that have happened have been kind of a catalyst in breaking down that closed door policy and making sure that it's transparent. But. And you can't argue till. Whatever, you can argue that it wasn't there back then and it was again a real challenge, a real challenge moving forward for all of us. And.
But I look back at my career and I look back at everything that happened and it made me stronger, it made me resilient and it made me understand basically what I could do moving forward to be able to use that experience in a positive way.
[00:36:06] Speaker C: Pete, thank you so much for sharing that. That's unfathomable, truly. I mean, to have. But what you shared there, I mean, a lot of people have long NHL careers, have long pro careers.
That's meaningful in their lives and that's a meaningful thing. But your career and your life has taken on so much more meaning in the way that that means the capital M, meaning where you've been able to give meaning to so many other players too. And on top of the long career you had, like that is something that I think is extremely unique and, and extremely positive to take from such just a truly horrifying tragedy. And I don't know how many people in the larger hockey public have connected those two stories. The horrific abuse and the horrific crash. Like it's such a unbelievably horrifying situation, top to bottom. I mean, it makes you uniquely positioned to advocate for athletes at that young age.
Because that is something that certainly now, hopefully we never have to go through it again. Here we are going through it again. But you know, the closed door issues that you've mentioned there, I think that where we've certainly, we've come a long way, but certainly it seems like every time you turn over a rock at any level of hockey, some version of what you've described there keeps being found in terms of these closed door, homosocial, very, very harmful environments.
I don't know if we've even really, truly seen the horrors or really learned the horrors of what's going on right now in Chicago. But that story keeps getting told over and over and over again, whether it's a small thing or a large thing. I mean, you're dealing with three or four maybe high profile NHL level scandals that involve what you just mentioned, these sort of close to scrutiny, close to outside organizations, things that can happen because the culture permits it.
The first thing that always came to my mind was if it's happening at this level, if it's happening in the Toronto Maple Leafs, if it's happening at, you know, the Carolina Hurricanes, Calgary Flames, Chicago Blackhawks, that must be something that's, that's just everywhere in professional hockey. When you see these scandals, do you think that, that the general Canadian hockey public understand that coercive influence of a hockey dressing room, or do you think that it's something the Canadians understand, but yet sort of want to continue because they believe it's a part of hockey culture?
[00:38:25] Speaker A: I think we're understanding it more and more. I think there's still a legacy of, we don't want to know that. You know, we want to turn a blind eye to that a little bit and celebrate the great things about the game.
But yeah, I mean, without getting into the issue in Chicago, I mean, I still read stories, but I'm just dumbfounded. I can't believe what's gone on there. And I just, that's like a real kick in the gut sometimes to think that, okay, after all the, you know, after all the work that's been done and then that still happens, it's a little bit disheartening, but again, it is, you know, and let's not just pick on hockey and it's in institutions all over. I mean, I'm familiar with that and.
But it's really, it's one of those things that you Know what? Like, I often tell my students, you know, yeah, yeah, we've come along, we've come a long way in with gender issues in sport and equality and inclusivity. But let's not start patting ourselves on the back yet here, man. We got a long way to go. Like, there is still some, A lot of work to do. So again, I'm not one to go back and, you know, publicly or whatever, criticize and point finger fingers, but I'm certainly not one to go back and deny and say, well, no, you know, yeah, we need to go back and understand where we were and where we are now and what we still need to do. So, yeah, you know, the other one that comes to mind to me is the, I was just talking about it in class today is the gymnastics situation in the us like, are you kidding me? Like, how does that happen? You know, some of it's just, it's mind boggling. And, you know, like every time something like this happens, it leaves a trail of destruction. It leaves a trail of lifelong impact on people.
And, you know, it's just really, you know, sport is about power or empowering people and positivity and health and wellness. And unfortunately, there's still aspects of it that, you know, get, I guess, clouded in that, in that pursuit. So, yeah, it's, I mean, we could talk for days on all of these things, but they're, they're really interesting subjects and it's really, I say it's difficult when something like that comes to light and we're, we're made aware of that. It's like really kind of a head scratcher.
[00:41:03] Speaker C: Yeah. The USA Gymnastics one. There's a similarity in these issues and it has to do with the duty of care that's part of this. Where the gymnastics one is.
I can't imagine how it makes you feel. It just makes me so infuriated because, you know, I have a lot of sympathy for professional athletes when they're treated the way that we've heard described. Tons.
But when you're dealing with athletes that there's a duty of care to care for in that I truly believe includes the chl. When you're dealing with the ages of these guys and so often they're treated like they're pros, but these are kids. Even if they've signed ELCs, these are, these are still. There's a duty of care there. You mentioned you leave home, you live with someone else, you're trusting. There's so much trust at a university.
I mean, my goodness, I Mean for that to be happening, USA Gymnastics, but at Michigan State University, publicly funded institutions like, there's so many checks that should have, that should have caught the stuff. Yeah, we could go forever on that. I'm so sorry to bring that stuff up, but you're right, I mean, these issues are not, and I'm saying this to the hockey course that I'm in right now, but these issues are not dusty old ones from a bygone era that we're all so smart about now. I mean, the power dynamic at play that you described there is not going anywhere in sport. And as long as the financial incentives are still aligned at the way that they are, you're going to get people willing to abuse those sorts of structures. Now in your own experience. I mean, I've got, I've had a lot of questions about, you know, the Oilers and I got a lot of questions about, you know, your time there when you sort of spoke to your first experiences in terms of the industry as a whole. But did you get a sense when you were drafted, you get a sense that this is something, an amalgam of like literally probably 30 or 40 questions in the same ballpark.
Did you get a taste of I've not been prepared for the level of expectation or I'm not prepared or I wasn't prepared well enough for the business related dynamic of an NHL dressing room or an NHL ice surface or, you know, dealing with general managers. Is there anything that prepared you for that journey?
[00:43:15] Speaker A: Well, when you say that, I think what comes to mind for me is just, just the element of the experiences I had injured, particularly the bus accident and the effects that left is I had trouble functioning on a daily basis, let alone being a high level athlete. I mean, to be honest, like once that event happened and passed through that I was on a downhill slide in terms of, you know, and the biggest thing, and I'm not making excuses, but the biggest thing was I had lost my passion for the game. I just, you know, it was just such a blow and such a. And some of the experiences were so, so difficult to accept and move on and deal with and function. So not only was I trying to just, you know, be, be me every day and do what I needed to do, but just to jump into that level. You know, being drafted as a 17 year old going into, you know, remember when I was, I was drafted to a team that, I think they won four Stanley Cups after that. So there were, that was, and I mean, you know what I still talk about what an incredible, the positives of that culture. Like the leadership and the expectations and the accountability. Like I mean I. A lot of the things I talk about now in my sports, like I learned, you know, just peripherally being in the Edmonton Oilers dressing room and different areas, you know, I, I didn't play with the Edmonton Oilers in league because I signed a four year deal and then spent most of that in the minors. There weren't a heck of a lot of jobs. Again, not another excuse, but I wasn't going to take Mark Messier's or Essa Tekken and or Glenn Anderson's job as a 17 year old. So. But in saying that like I learned a great deal from being around those, those incredible, incredibly dedicated and amazing athletes and the culture. There are so many positives but there was not there, not in Edmonton but just generally because I wasn't involved enough. But it was really, you know, being prepared for that.
It's a lot to take on and some young athletes or kids, they're good at it, they can manage it. And I say you can go to the NHL or from junior to the American League to the NHL. And what separates athletes is not how hard they shoot or how tough they are or how fast they are, it's there, it's how they prepare, how they manage themselves, how they stay in the present, how they control what they need to control and not worry about other, you know. So I was no like a student just asked me a couple hours ago here, you know, did you have anyone to talk to or do anything like that? It's like not a chance. I didn't know anything about this stuff, you know. And now my phone's been ringing off the hook for the last month of helping athletes prepare for training camp and talk about mental skills and mental health. And when I played zero, none of that I wasn't prepared for anything other than I just was kind of naive going yeah, I want to be a hockey player and have a great fun life and had no idea what I was getting into. So. But again that's me and because of some of the experiences I encountered that was hard for me. But other athletes seem to, they thrived in that, in that environment.
[00:46:46] Speaker C: So we've talked a little bit about the sort of seeming ability of certain hockey players in certain parts of this country that sort of produced these ready made professionals at 16 years old who know how to tell the media absolutely nothing while talking for an hour. And you know, they can just sort of the Jonathan Toews, you know, and Jonathan Taves 2.0 and Jonathan Taves 4.0 that seems to just keep rolling off the line. It's something that is remarkable from a gameplay point of view and in terms of what they're able to produce. But there are hazards that come with that. I mean, you know, if you ask people, well, who the most exciting players in hockey are, how. I don't know how many. I mean, Conor McDavid's a huge different example of this. But there is something lost here in this sort of ability to produce 16 year olds that are mentally shut down to the world. And that given that tunnel vision that you described earlier, it is something that I think about frequently. We discuss in our classes what's being lost when we force students to. Students, well, students do, I guess, but when we force players to sort of forego the human, human side of their lives to become pros. Now, you mentioned the three step journey and I got a lot of questions actually about the American Hockey League and what was that. Jump is frequently referenced today. And the American Hockey League is very different today obviously than the way it was in the 80s. And there's a lot younger, I think generally speaking than it may have been back then. But you had to jump young into that American League.
Can you describe what that was like playing in the American League in those years?
[00:48:15] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean I was fortunate. I played in Sydney, Nova Scotia, in Cape Breton, which was just a great, just a great. I have so many positive and fond memories. Just a beautiful part of our country. The people were amazing.
But it was across the country away from home and I was, you know, I was. Guess I went there as a 19 year old, so 18 to 19.
But that was, you know, all these transitions going from minor hockey to junior hockey, from one junior hockey team to another hockey team, from that hockey team to a pro training camp and then from a pro training camp to the. Now I'm starting my job. I've got a four year contract and now I'm, you know, now I'm in Cape Breton. So that's when the business and that's when the real. Okay, this is my job. I never thought about this as a job before. It was a fun game.
Now I'm here again fighting for a job and the uncertainty of every day. Think about if you're going to. We're fortunate. A lot of us, we go to work and some of us have pretty stable work lives and things are good. But as a 19 year old or an 18 year old just kind of walking in every day wondering, okay, is this a day where my sweater's not going to be hanging there or my gear's packed up already or, or is my best friend and roommate gonna get traded or, you know, so I think the reality sets in there. And at that point, in my opinion, you've gotta be fully in if you're gonna survive and make it. You've gotta be in and you've gotta be fully in. And I was never fully in. I mean, I lost the love for the game, I lost my passion.
And that translated into, you know, all sorts of other things that weren't healthy and effective for me to further my career. And I'm okay with that now because I understand why, you know, I, you know, I, I struggled with other things in my life because of the situations that happened. And again, I'm not making excuses, but what I'm saying is, you know, it takes a special person and a special situation. You know, all the planets have to align. Like for someone to go in there and have a successful 12 or 16 year career as a pro athlete takes a special person and it takes a ton of work, dedication and, you know, but at that time, I needed that.
I was drained of it. I was done. And so that was tough for me to, you know, and Sheldon always talks about this too. It's tough to sit back and have regrets. Why didn't I do that better? Why didn't I? But we can't beat ourselves up.
That we can just accept and try to learn from, from the experience and try to, and, you know, I guess, I guess try to articulate that for people who are in the same situation. That's why, that's why I have clients and phone calls, is because people understand I'm not, I'm not trying to convince them of something. I've been, I've been there, I've been through it. I understand the challenges, I understand the, the positives and negatives about going through that, down that path. So it's very complex and it takes a special person and situation to get to that end result, that final goal, to have a long career, successful career and be happy and healthy. I know for a fact that if I stayed in the game of hockey at that age, I would have struggled more. I know I would have. You know, it was just a matter of time before it was all going to catch up with me. And thank goodness that you know when it did and that I have a wonderful, supportive wife and family and, you know, that helped me through that and just kind of learn how to accept it and understand.
So I think that's Again, why I can talk to people and be credible in that aspect of the work I do, which is important to me.
[00:52:17] Speaker C: You have a unique ability here to answer a million questions with one answer. I'm just going through this list and you're like, well, just answered that a lot of questions about, you know, how you felt near the end of your career. You've answered so many of them here. And I think that, you know, the last thing I wanted to ask you is this is about coaching. And coaching is such.
So many of the answers here sort of get laid at the feet of coaching. Coaches and coaches are expected to be mental health professionals, and they're expected to be surrogate father figures, and they're expected to be a lot of things.
And there isn't necessarily a great infrastructure to produce good coaches. If there was, you know, we have all of them at every level. Right. But. But I think that it's generally understood that, you know, a lot of the problems that you've got, especially at young age, hockey playing of young age, and then as far as, you know, even the NHL coaches seems to be. Coaching seems to be a huge issue that you've. You've touched on today.
What is the. In your experience going through hockey, what was the sort of the largest problem that you saw with coaching? And do you think that coaching has improved markedly or is it sort of still stuck in the ways that you experienced?
[00:53:28] Speaker A: Well, I think coaching has evolved in a lot of ways. And I think I've said this before, like, to me, more so I'm, as a coach, everyone that gets to a certain level knows tactics, strategy, fundamental skills. To me, at any level, first and foremost, the most important thing to me in terms of coaching is building relationships and being able to connect with people.
If people feel like they can't connect with someone that they look up to and feel like their whole future is right, if there's no riding on that person, if there's no connection, that can be pretty isolating and pretty lonely. So when I coach, you know, when I coach young kids or, you know, I'm an assistant coach with the men's soccer team here, and, you know, I'm not a soccer expert, but they know that I care about them and that I'm here for them when they need to talk. And so I think just that, that connection with people, to be the best coaches, as a coach, you want to get the most out of each individual. Like, you want to have them present. You want to have them comfortable, happy, healthy, and producing. The best way to get there is by building relationships and you know, when, when the minor hockey kids that I, you know, I'll be an assistant coach or something, I say hello to every one of them and I joke with them and. Because that's what they're going to remember when they leave. Oh, Coach Pete, you know, said this.
So to me, we've gone from zero connection in terms of that exchange between person in power and person not in power.
We've gone down the line where it's getting better, but I still think we need to spend more time. You know, Saif, I've heard people in different institutions refer to that connection as the soft skills. I'm like, what do you mean by that? To me those are the most important skills in life, in sport, in business, in success is creating relationships.
And then you can implement things like responsibility, accountability and retention in organizations.
And I've spoken to different organizations about that. Like there are certain things that have to fundamentally build the scaffolding of your organization. I think that respectful behavior, building relationships, treating each other well and just taking that extra, going that extra mile to connect with people. For me, that's the foundation of a coach. Then the rest is easy. We know how to play the game, we know you're good athletes. Let's go out and do it. And then if you've got that connection, you're going to have a better chance of being successful. And that's what I think organizations and leagues are starting to understand now and figure out that, yeah, it's worth time going there, it's worth the effort because not only will it make a better positive experience for the athletes, but it will for the organizations and the owners and the general managers and it'll produce better results.
[00:56:54] Speaker C: Pete, that's fantastic. And I want to thank you again sincerely for everything you just you've shared with us today. From everyone here at spima4p97, I want to thank you and on behalf of my class as well. And I want to wish you well this semester and good luck in your season and for the soccer season as well.
[00:57:11] Speaker A: Oh, thanks Taylor. It's my pleasure. And I wish I could be there to meet everybody and sit down and have a chat. Maybe someday.
But yeah, I really appreciate and I really enjoy.
I hope that was helpful and gave everybody some insight and anytime.
I really enjoy doing this, so I really appreciate it.
[00:57:37] Speaker B: Alright, that'll do it for week three's worth of content. Remember, your media analysis is coming up due very quickly and again, remember to listen to the instructions regarding your audio responses from the beginning of the guest lecture.
[00:57:47] Speaker C: If you've got any questions at all.
[00:57:49] Speaker B: About the media response or any part of this week, send me an email. Looking forward to hearing your audio responses. I hope you have a great week.
